Geocentrism vs. Heliocentrism

No fire cracker or bee's nest at all. I think that talking about it, doesn't (or shouldn't) bring about any bees or firecrackers; but rather a discussion about what the father's say is the proper place of science in the world. They did not deny science, but they rather gave it, it's proper place. I am in no means a scientific or theological scholar....but I can offer up books that I've read on the subject about what the fathers say is the proper place and the relationship between the two. To try and even prove any point myself is useless. But reading these things has opened my eyes in a different way to the true relationship, in ways no one (scientist, teacher, lay person) ever or was ever able to explain to me in such a way. People like Elder Cleopa and other spiritual fathers were able to talk about these things because they really, really understood them. You should read these books too, that might really interest you! I think discussions like this don't and shouldn't be a time for bees and firecrackers (I like that quote!) but rather an opprotunity to try and find out something that perhaps you haven't had a chance yet to read about from the fathers. God Bless!

This link is entirely unhelpfull. Why don't you tell us what the Elder actually said.

aaaaah, but you've hit upon the question! If the Fathers agreed that geocentrism is Divinely revealed why are we not putting our Faith in God? And putting faith in scientists that may have an agenda or beef with Christianity. It doesn't mean that science is evil or doesn't have a place but rather the conclusions could be faulty based on presuppositions of the scientists. It opens a whole Pandora's box. Soon every tenet of Faith can (and has been) be open for attack because we've had to explain away why the Father's \"got it wrong\"

\"If the Fathers agreed that geocentrism is Divinely revealed why are we not putting our Faith in God?\" Is geocentrism divinely revealed? I'm not familiar with any Biblical passages that say it is (but correct me if I'm wrong here). Frankly, I can't figure out why or how it makes any difference in the slightest to us, our faith, or theology, or any of our beliefs where in the universe the Earth is in relation to all the other stuff out there. We once believed the Earth was a flat square with Jerusalem at the middle. When science proved that opinion incorrect, Christianity survived. We once believed the stars and planets were specks of glowing dust painted on the inside skin of the universe. When science banished that to the realm of false theories, Christianity still survived. Even when Darwin came along with his theory of evolution, many Christians found a place for his finding that was harmonious with their faith, and Christianity still survived! Why do mainstream or non-Christian scientists and science have to be wrong for us to be right? If our faith is that fragile, why even bother to believe?

ScienceChristian, I understand your points. It seems as though you are getting worked up, not sure why. Forgive me. I wasn't thinking of myself or us actually. But the many lost souls that have fallen victim to atheism and secularism. Some of whom I have encountered and tried to share the Faith with.

Anyway, I'm not looking to debate. Thanks for all the answers. God bless!

Hmmm... \"Lost souls\" I'm not too sure about. Many people have gone from atheism to theism (sometimes quite suddenly). But I do see your point. I'm sorry if I seemed like I was getting a little worked up there. (I think I can give impression sometimes, especially in writing). The whole faith/science thing is something that's very close to my heart, so I can say quite a bit or come across a little more passionate than intended. But thanks for pointing that out ahead of time! :-)

I trust the Fathers in matters of theology, but don't pay much attention to their views regarding science because more often than not, as is the case here, their views on science do not affect my understanding of God or my relationship to Him. All of the Fathers were men of their times. Pope Clement I of Rome believed that a Phoenix lived in Egypt. While that belief is absurd, it in no way diminishes his pastoral and theological views. It is worth noting that the Ecumenical Councils, as far as I know, have never concerned themselves with science, but have focused their attention upon theological truths. And IMO, many people become atheists or secularists because our faith is seen as irrational. I know a lot of learned people that don't take us seriously because of the pseudo-science insisted upon by some members of the clergy. Metroplitan Ware gave a talk at a Protestant university a couple of years back about evolution and the Christian faith and it put me at ease. He said that the theologian and the scientist has different sets of questions, and therefore, different sets of answers. It doesn't mean that the different answers are irreconcilable, it just means that they are different. But to each his own. I don't insist one way or another what people should believe when it comes to science. Evolutionist or creationist? Doesn't matter to me. Heliocentrist or geocentrist? Don't care. It is only when people start teaching heresy or when certain \"scientists\" insist that science can speak about the spiritual realm, that I begin to have a problem. Just my two cents... John

John_ICXC: Beautiful! Your thoughts here are very close to my own. Why force the two into conflict when non needs to be had? Thanks for your two cents... :-)

I believe that EVERYTHING that science discovers every day, just proves that the Bible is true. If you know how to read the Bible, it does NOT say anything different from the findings. Now the Darwin delusions, let us not forget that it is a THEORY and nothing more, People lack the 96% of knowledge ... DO not forget that

Because you should read the whole book! There is so much that he talks about, that I could not do justice to by just typing it up here. Everyone should have the book, it;s very good.

The trouble is, there are some on the Circle (usually converts from fundamentalist Protestantism, but not always) who would insist that because St. Clement believed in Phoenixes, we are therefore obliged to believe in them too.

Yes, I have noticed that as well. Many converts from Protestantism have brought their Fundamentalist baggage with them. However, I have also seen very strong anti-science sentiments coming out of the Russian Church to which I belong, and in the Greek Church to a lesser extent. For instance, I was recently told that I *must* believe that St. George fought a fire breathing dragon. Legend says that dragons existed and so we are obliged to believe the same. That sentiment came from a born-Greek Orthodox Christian. I swear, some of our brothers and sisters perplex me, but I love them just the same!! :) John

First off. Everyone has baggage and everyone is a convert. Be patient of those who migrated from Protestantism to Orthodoxy. Second, I thinks pretty awesome that someone in their life really believes a phoenix lives in Egypt. Or that St. George really fought a fire breathing dragon. (In my sociology it was brought up that all cultures has two similar stories, a massive flood and the common theme of a dragon to be slain) Third, scientist have proven that at one point snakes did have legs. Those snake experts have stated the reason the serpents went without legs was to move easier on the ground. In any case, science has proven that the scriptures has told that the serpent had legs. Which gives women a biblical reason to hate snakes. I love snakes but I guess I'm siding with the enemy. :) I will say though that evolution is bad science. There was the one scandle in which a scientist found the missing link from ape to humans. He made fake skeletal remains to push the evolution theory. That's just a bad scientist. Also if you go the science route of decay and formation, the Egyptian pyramids are around 4 or 5 thousand years old. They are falling apart. How can a 65 million year old dinosaur bones be preserved in the ground without the same rate of decay? Mind you the remains of dinosaur bones are rock as well. I just like the icon of Adam blessing the naming of the animals and there is a dragon and unicorn in there!

I often call myself \"agnostic\" on a load of \"faith and\" issues (reincarnation, divination, mythical creatures, etc.), not because I don't believe or don't have an opinion, but simply because it makes very little difference to my faith in the long run. Did St. George fight a literal, flesh and blood, fire breathing dragon? I don't know. More likely he fought demonic being, possibly in the form of what we might call a dragon. But I'm sure that what was going on spiritually and the message the story conveys is of far greater significance than whether or not he was in combat with an actual animal. I find the same applies to science often times as well. Flat Earth, sphere Earth: Christianity will be no less valid or valuable either way. Evolution, creation: one way or the other (though I do believe evolution to be the better in terms of science), it doesn't change my faith. If our faith is as powerful, true, and immortal as we believe it to be, raw facts and good science shouldn't worry us in the least.