Alright, this is an issue I\'ve been thinking hard about for many, many years.
My belief: the Orthodox Church NEEDS to come into the modern world and address contemporary issues, via contemporary means. We need to start really being active in this world and making our voices heard.
But here\'s the trick: we can\'t! Not because we\'re not able, but because there need to be a huge shift in the church. In other words, our attitude is all wrong. We\'re not ready yet, we\'re not willing, and until something changes, we won\'t be able to come forward and start presenting what we have to offer to the world.
So knowing that there\'s an intelligent bunch of people out there, I figured I\'d get the ball rolling on a conversation about Orthodoxy\'s new approach to a new world.
Enjoy!
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MichaelC Prout
#23
Archbishop Puhalo is adept at science.
Here is a link to a lecture entitled \\"Approaching The Educated Person in the Post Christian Era\\"
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/LazarChristianity.php
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#24
\\"What I really want to see is people of Orthodox faith encouraging scientific research and those who follow that path. There isn\'t very much of that in the church today. Far more often I see Orthodox putting science down, which is disappointing\\"
I think this is where most of us are confused about your point... WHAT FIELD of science or technology? it\'s rather broad.
In the medical sciences, our Church has declared some things to be unethical - such as using stem cells from aborted fetuses.. is this the kind of research you mean?
Research with computers?
astronomy?
anthropology?
biology?
what area?
most of those areas are not in conflict with the church... and orthodox do work in those areas, I\'m sure.... and issues of those areas in conflict with the church have mostly been addressed...
so what are you looking for? really?
many faithful are content with the simple life, because the simple life is a simpler approach to Christ... we don\'t NEED to know about computers.. we don\'t NEED to know about photosynthesis... we don\'t NEED to know the diet and habitat of galapagos turtles... it\'s not necessary for a life in Christ - and maybe that\'s why you don\'t see it much... but also, the orthodox within those fields just do it - no need for fanfare, it\'s their God given talent, and they are not wasting it.
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Anna Bennett
#25
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#26
There are many Orthodox scientists. They make great contributions to science and also are able to speak about science to other Orthodox. But, apart from this, I\'m not sure what it is you want, Gabriel. The Church is not a university. The Church does not do experiments in laboratories, though many of her members do. Rather, the Church is concerned with faith and spirituality. All her members are fundamentally concerned with living an Orthodox Christian life and keeping Christ\'s commandments, since this is their obligation. People of just about every occupation are Orthodox and do these things, including scientists. The Orthodox Church isn\'t in some sort of competition, rather it is broad and inclusive of all humanity. What is required of us is to be Orthodox--in our dogma, our practice, our mindset and worldview, and our spirituality--in everything.
Now, there are times when the realms of science and the realms of faith collide, where scientists try to dogmatize about matters of faith, and religious persons try to dogmatize about science. This is unfortunate, but I think understandable. There are atheists and godless individuals who would try to abuse science and use it to say that God does not exist, and many other things. Naturally, this is offensive to religious people, and they become defensive. What would you expect them to do? When confronted with manipulation and lies, most faithful people hold to truth, expose the lies, and work for better understanding. But, there are many who, even if God Himself were to appear before them, would refuse to believe. They prefer their own thoughts, their own way of life. But many of these are not content to let such preference be just with them, but adopt a missionary zeal to corrupt others. This is wrong, and should be fought against. And we, Orthodox Christians, do that with technology sometimes, with argument other times, with preaching and teaching, but, first and foremost with prayer, the Holy Liturgy, with fasting, faithfulness to truth, obedience, humility--for these are spiritual weapons, which are far more effective for our type of warfare, which is not, fundamentally, against people who have become corrupted, but against spiritual enemies, the devil and his demons, against sin and passions.
You said you want the Church to change somehow to adapt to the times. I tell you the times haven\'t changed at all. We\'re still living in the same fallen world in which Christ and His Apostles preached. It hasn\'t gotten any better, and the fundamental laws governing the world have not changed. It is a world still very much needing a Savior, a Savior it rebels against and would crucify again if it could. But those who come to themselves, who are sick of what the world feeds them (self-indulgence, despair, vanity, hatred, the spiritual death of living a life dominated by passions)--these find the Church a blessed and saving refuge, and belief in Christ transforms them into new people. They humble themselves to Christ\'s yoke, and allow the Church to change and transform them.
To what purpose would we try and change the Church, the Church that has been saving souls for 2,000 years, souls of every nation, souls in every imaginable state, using all sorts of means? The Church has never been stuck in a rut. The Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth, as the Lord said, so how could it be that the Church would need some sort of overhaul? There are holy people--saints--in every age, in every place. God hasn\'t left the Church or the world, but is still seeking the salvation of every man, woman, and child, whether or not they know or accept this.
So, before we get and voice large ideas about wanting to change things, we should try and learn more about the Church and what she does and has done in every age and place, and submit ourselves to her instruction so that our lives, too, might be transformed. When we work to change ourselves, to become Orthodox Christians in reality, and not just in name, when we cease judging the Church or our brethren, and judge ourselves instead, and realize how much we are lacking and in need, then we will make the needed change. Real, spiritual change is neither amorphous or grandiose, rather it begins with the sincere repentance of one soul, and, like light, radiates from there.
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#27
\\"What I really want to see is people of Orthodox faith encouraging scientific research and those who follow that path.\\"
Look up St Luke of Simferopol.
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MichaelC Prout
#29
uhh.. hey Mike
that quote is from Solomon
Ecclesiastes/ the preacher
Of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
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#31
The Orthodox church is a treasure chest filled with endless treasure. The more you delve in to the faith, it becomes clear that it is fathomless. Just living and breathing our faith without necessarily talking about it in the world can bring about miracles. St. Seraphim of Sarov said just by coming to God and working out your own salvation a thousand souls will be saved. It\'s a chain reaction, always attempting to be more Christlike.
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On science - Why don\'t we talk about science in church in a way that\'s supportive, instead of always focusing on what\'s wrong with it? (Yes, there are things wrong with it, I know.)
On faith - I\'m not, have not, and do not in anyway suggesting that we do anything about our traditions, just the way we think about them. Christ is perfect, yes. But that does not mean we are. And what is the church but a collection of us, who are imperfect? They way we approach faith, the world even, always sounds so vindictive, absolutist, and even primitive. That\'s not to say that our root beliefs are primitive. We just get them out in a way that often sounds negative. Often times the Orthodox Church can seem like a rigid, unwelcoming, exclusive entity to anyone on the outside.
Where is the Orthodox school?
Where is the Orthodox hospital?
Why is there not more communication between us and other religions?
Where are the Orthodox relief workers and peace activists?
Where are the churches that want to teach children about science, rather than teach them that science is ultimately a sick counterfit?
Why is the church still a minority, and a shrinking one at that?
Can we really just pin all this on everyone else?
Where\'s the humility to take responsibility for the failures of Christians?
I\'m not a heretic.
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Ryan McGee
#32
ScienceChristian wrote:
On science - Why don't we talk about science in church in a way that's supportive, instead of always focusing on what's wrong with it? (Yes, there are things wrong with it, I know.)
On faith - I'm not, have not, and do not in anyway suggesting that we do anything about our traditions, just the way we think about them. Christ is perfect, yes. But that does not mean we are. And what is the church but a collection of us, who are imperfect? They way we approach faith, the world even, always sounds so vindictive, absolutist, and even primitive. That's not to say that our root beliefs are primitive. We just get them out in a way that often sounds negative. Often times the Orthodox Church can seem like a rigid, unwelcoming, exclusive entity to anyone on the outside.
Where is the Orthodox school?
Where is the Orthodox hospital?
Why is there not more communication between us and other religions?
Where are the Orthodox relief workers and peace activists?
Where are the churches that want to teach children about science, rather than teach them that science is ultimately a sick counterfit?
Why is the church still a minority, and a shrinking one at that?
Can we really just pin all this on everyone else?
Where's the humility to take responsibility for the failures of Christians?
I'm not a heretic.
The Roman Catholic Church, which has hospitals, universities, renowned scientists and scholars, missionary societies, relief organizations, etc. attempted reconciliation with secular ideas some fifty years ago. Mass confusion has been the result.
Orthodoxy is firm, to keep out the maelstrom of ever-shifting religious and philosophical trends on the outside.
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Bob & Jackie Robinson
#33
It\'s certainly true we need to \\"work out our salvation.\\" I wonder, though, how many people have come to Christ by seeing all us Godly people in America living out their lives? Has your neighbor? Your co-workers? Your enemies? Your friends? Romans 10 says: And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
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Bob & Jackie Robinson
#34
I came from a very contemporary, modern, happening rocked out Baptist church that had all the bells and whistles, light shows and fog for the worship team and you know what? I grew to really dislike it, especially after being exposed to the \\"old fashioned\\" Orthodox way. BUT, what I\'ve seen and wonder about in the Orthodox church is why aren\'t we reaching out to the lost people of this earth. I\'ve shared Christ in India (Hindus), Thailand (Buddhist) and about 10 other countries and until the Orthodox start doing that in a much more aggressive way, people will just keep on being born and dying without ever having the joy of knowing Christ on this earth. That stinks! We don\'t need to compromise our Truth, our Faith as given to us by the Apostles, but we do have to go, love and share the good news that Jesus is alive and well and loves people.
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#35
One reason we are not reaching out (in America) is that we are not unified. As in we have the OCA, the Antiochians, Greeks, etc.
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Ramy G
#2
I admire ScienceChristian for his spirit, his zeal for the Church and for his young age as well. It\'s a good thing when the Church has sons as young and zealous as ScienceChristian. I understand his concerns and trust that his views will be perfected in the future and God will work out something great through him for the good of everyone. Keep searching and struggling, and you\'ll find answers. It might be that not only the Church needs to mature to know how to deal with the world, but also the world itself needs to change to understand and benefit from the Church. God\'s blessings to you.
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VaDave wrote:
One reason we are not reaching out (in America) is that we are not unified. As in we have the OCA, the Antiochians, Greeks, etc.
Yes, and that some of us are more \\"ethnically enclavistic\\" than others.
His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah mentioned in one of his speeches that unifying Orthodoxy in America is one of his goals, so we shall pray and see ....
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#1
robotom wrote:
it makes some kind of weird warping of our tradition... Liturgy on TV, ... or that watching the Divine Liturgy on TV is some kind of adequate substitute...
I\'ll add that a couple of times (usually when one of the children were sick) when I couldn\'t make Liturgy, I fired it up over the internet. I stopped that and switched to reading the Typica - so that I was actually praying as opposed to watching a television program. Yes, \\"modern\\" isn\'t always better.
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