Spiritual Father questions

You seem to be describing a monastic spiritual father. The relationship between a monk and his elder is VERY different than the relationship between a layperson and their spiritual father/father confessor. Much of the Orthodox literature out there pertains to monastics. It\'s important to recognize the differences (e.g., laypeople are not called to \"unconditional obedience\"). Laypeople do not need to ask a blessing for everything like a monastic would. For a layperson (especially a married layperson), the spiritual father should be more of a \"guide\" than an elder to whom obedience is given. As many saints in recent centuries have said, there are few or no true spiritual fathers left in the world. By that I take it to mean \"startsy,\" or holy, Spirit-filled elders. For virtually all of us, our spiritual father will be a good priest, but not a clairvoyant elder. Not that a spiritual father has to be a priest -- theoretically, it could be an experienced monk or nun. One must have a confessor. On the other hand, I think a true spiritual father is rarer, and not absolutely necessary for every single Orthodox Christian.

I would agree with most of what Namees says except at the very end. I do believe a spiritual father is a must. By this I mean a guide who \"has done it before\" and is more advanced than ourselves. That way, we can be guided to a \"higher\" level. In our modern parish filled world, the best placed to start is with your parish priest.

Metropolitan Anthony in _Meditations on a Theme_ quotes from a correspondence between a merchant in St. Petersburg and a starets, in which the former asks the latter whether or not he should hire a maid recommended to him, and then later whether or not he should fire her because she makes him angry. This doesn\'t seem to fit into the tidy categories people have laid out here -- it is a lay person asking a starets for detailed guidance about regular life decisions, and doing it remotely (via correspondence). Some time ago when I talked with my parish priest about a spiritual father he suggested I visit a priest in a certain monastery. My attempt to follow up then fell afoul of some chaos in my life. I suppose the answer from folks here will be \"stop reading and complicating things and go consult your parish priest again.\" Which is excellent advice.

My 2 cents... First pray to God to help you find someone to help you grow in your relationship with Him. He wants you to have a guide more than you do. That being assumed... I remember hearing that in searching for a spiritual father/father confessor, as a layperson, since monastics are under the spiritual father of the monastery they join, one should find a priest who has Christian qualities they admire and learn from them. As far as obedience goes, for laity, it can be as simple as a daily prayer rule, which prayers to read, and a fasting rule, what to eat if exceptions are necessary due to illness. But not as detailed as how to invest our money or rearrange the furniture in our homes. The monastic understanding of obedience is MUCH more detailed than those in the world. As you grow spiritually and maybe move to other cities for various reasons, you might find that you have either outgrown your spiritual father or need someone who is more convenient. i.e. in the same city instead of across the country. Traditionally you should ask permission to be released from your spiritual father in order to find a new one. You may also find that you have the same Spiritual Father all your life.

Agreed, Father. I mixed up my terms. What I meant was basically what I said in the second paragraph -- a \"starets\" is a rarity, but a trusted confessor and guide is important. Basically, a person going to their spiritual father shouldn\'t expect to give monastic obedience or to receive clairvoyant advice. Putting those kinds of expectations on spiritual fathers is not fair to them (or to ourselves).

Unfortunately, there are distinctions being made that really are not part of our Tradition. We shudder at the idea of obedience...just read the comments preceeding this and you\'ll see. We want to be our own boss, and have a priest as a confessor and \"guide\" that we can talk to when we want something from them. This is not Orthodox! All Christians are called to obedience, the only difference is in degrees. And for most of us, the degree is determined by our spiritual father. Certainly, there can be abuses, but the literature of the Church also defines these abuses and tells us what to do if they do occur. We shy away from spiritual fatherhood in America, but when we define it we really talk about gurus, and not true spiritual fathers in the Orthodox Christian Tradition. It\'s just a bad idea to start rationalizing what we want, what we can deal with, and then trying to figure out a way to fit this idea of ours into the Church. We take the deposit of the Faith, and struggle to fit into it. St. Silouan, a very important modern day Saint from Mt. Athos, has some very pertinant things to say on our topic. So here are some sources, if you might be interested. \"St. Silouan the Athonite,\" by Archimandrite Sophrony, see expecially pages 77-87 (the topics are discovering God\'s will and obedience, very good distillation of the Church\'s Tradition here) \"The Monk of Mount Athos,\" by Archimandrite Sophrony (the info here is exactly the same as the above, but the above source is much more detailed) pages 51-54 \"The Enlargement of the Heart: Be ye also enlarged in the Theology of St. Silouan the Athonite and Elder Sophrony of Essex,\" by Archimandrite Zacharias, available at Thaborian.org...all of this book is amazing, but there is a chapter entitled \"Spiritual Fatherhood as a Ministry of Reconcilliation between Man and God\" (this chapter is also in the book \"Christ, Our Way and Our Life\") I pray this offers some help for you in discerning the path of our Lord. God bless, Priest Matthew

I already have a copy of the book \"Saint Silouan the Athonite\" and will read those pages and I may as well read the whole book. And I\'ll order that book from Mount Thabor Publishing. I had overlooked the obvious step of praying about this. I will pray! My thanks to all who have answered so far. May God\'s grace abound in and through you all, Reader Nathanael

Fr. Matthew, I\'ve got two of the books you mentioned, so I will definitely look at them. But in general, I do think it can be very harmful for laypeople to attempt to live in obedience to elders like monastics. I am a husband, and my \"obedience\" is in large part to my wife. I do not go to my spiritual father about little things. This is not out of disrespect -- he has explicitly told me that he is not an elder and I am not his disciple, and I am under no obedience to him. He has further said that his counsel is not to be understood as a command but rather as advice from someone who has experience and wisdom. He has made it clear that he is quite fallible and not clairvoyant. This doesn\'t mean I just disregard his advice, but for me to equate him with an elder in the monastic sense would be inappropriate. I have, in fact, lived under a much more strict obedience to a \"spiritual father\" who turned out to be quite a charlatan. This experience taught me not to put too much faith in any individual. Certainly obedience is vital to our lives as Orthodox Christians, but for those of us in the world, that obedience can be more complex than it might be for someone in a monastic setting. I must humble myself and crucify my will in the context of my relationship with my wife, my child, my employer, my professors, etc. One other thing -- monastic obedience usually involves revelation of thoughts with one\'s elder. For those of us who are married, I believe this kind of intimacy is best practiced within the marriage, between husband and wife.

i ve asked once elder Paisios:\"Geronda how can we distinguish a good spiritual father\"? he told me :\"you are clever kids ,you can see by your own\" i insisted and he added: \"a good spiritual father should be strict to himself and indulgent to others\" when you see a spiritual father,acting like an army official,giving orders and asking for full obedience RUN AWAY!!! another good point is to observe him how he he behaves in the liturgy.If he is humble,attent,not hurried then you have a good sign. Of course you have to assure first that he is an orthodox priest with a canonical ordination,respecting orthodox ascetic-hesychastic tradition and with no heretical ideas.

Let me try to gather together some ideas from the messages so far. I reminded myself that it is not my job to make things happen; it is my job to actively make myself available so that God can make things happen in and through me. I can pray and ask questions and listen and visit people and worship in order to make myself available. We all agree that it is important to have a spiritual father. The first candidate that comes to mind is our parish priest, but people mentioned priests or monks in general as possibilities. Finding a spiritual father is a process of active discernment in an overall context of obedience first to God, then to some degree and in some way to the spiritual father. We strive to discern and avoid certain bad patterns in our relationship with a spiritual father but affirm that even bad patterns can, in God\'s hands, yield some real good. One place to read about the Orthodox tradition of spiritual fathers is in the writings of or about St. Silouan.

Forgive my intrusion into your discussion! I doubt my comments will be useful, as I am not that bright, but I would like to try to make a double-headed point. There seems to be a difference of opinion on how to apply the virtue of obedience to one\'s spiritual father in the modern world. It is a slight difference, one of nuance more than substance, but a difference nonetheless. Yes, monks and nuns are expected to be more obedient to their spiritual father/elder(ess) than secular Orthodox Christians. But it also depends on the type of spiritual father one is dealing with. Now, I have to emphasize here that AS I UNDERSTAND THE TERMS, (I say this because I don’t want to get bombarded with contrary comments – just suffice it to say that there can be some variation in the definitions!) a spiritual father is a more general term for a spiritual guide, and can encompass all of the following: confessor, pastor, abbot/abbess and elder (starets/geronda). Of course, these four types of persons are not all the same and therefore one’s relationship with and obedience to will not all be the same. Now here’s an important phrase – “relationship with” – so much depends on your relationship with the spiritual father in question. Are you a monk/nun? Is this priest your mysterial confessor? Do you “hang out” with him/her enjoying each others friendship? Is this a priest that you speak to once or twice a year when you go to (a rare) confession before (a rare) communion? These are things that should be considered. As I’ve previously said, monks and nuns are expected to maintain a higher level of obedience. Also, if your confessor imposes an epitemia on you with regards to something in confession, then obedience to that is obviously required. Now, interestingly enough, a spiritual father that knows you well enough to be considered your friend, as well as spiritual father, is someone to be heeded even more carefully (this is a point that is easily misunderstood because some will think this leads to unnecessary leniency because a spiritual father will “take it easy” on his friends. No spiritual father worth the term will do so!). Also, if you do not go to Church regularly, you probably don’t have a spiritual father. It should be understood that if someone is parading around as a spiritual father demanding the same level of obedience from the general laity as would be given by monastics, they are a charlatan and should not be listened to. However, they should be prayed for, and treated with pity and compassion, as they are very likely victims of “prelest” or “plany”, and not openly disdained and/or ridiculed. To sum up my point, there are varying levels of obedience depending on what type of spiritual father/mother you are talking about, and what kind of relationship you have with him/her. With my apologies for belabouring a couple turns of phrases, but, these are “snowflake” situations that do not come out of “sausage machines”. So there are the two guideposts to understanding this a bit: a) what type of spiritual father/mother are you dealing with; and b) what is your relationship with that person? As far as finding someone like an elder, don’t go by terminology alone (ie. everyone calls him Elder such-and-such so it must be true!). In the spiritual desert of North America, I know of two (maybe three) men that could rightly be called elders - not exactly common. But, yes pray about it and God will direct you to someone to guide you. Just don’t expect it do be done instantly. There’s no rush on finding a spiritual father. Live by the Gospel as best you can in your situation, and it will all happen as God wills, and in His timing. Those are my thoughts. There probably useless to you so don’t bother with them that much. God bless you all! Fr Cyprian

Wonderful perspective, Fr. Cyprian, thank you!