LP
#0
First off, I know that I really should talk to my spiritual father about this and plan to do so, but in the meantime I\'d like to hear waht others have to say about this matter.
Secondly, this is NOT a \"bash the protestant\" post and, though we can a go on ad nauseum about that, I really have no interest in such posts.
Now, here\'s the deal: I have a VERY opinionated protestant neighbor who regularly spouts heresies (i.e. Non-Orthodox teachings) as Biblical fact. A couple of examples are the fact that he goesto and supports a church that believes all \"pictures\" of Christ and His saints and idols, a belief that God is not a Trinity but Christianity consists of different names of the same God and, most recently, racial segregation in the name of Christianity.
To my shame, for the sake of keeping peace with him and his wife, my wife and I have bitten our tongues and ignored his ramblings with an occasional shake of the head and silence. After all,I assume he\'s just spouting off what he\'s heard in his church; so my \"beef\" isn\'t with him as much as it is with his spiritual leaders.
This morning, however, I started pondering (blame on the random thoughts of an ADD case :grin: ) about the saints who willingly went to death for defending our Faith. Then I started thinking about how if a person witnesses evil and does nothing, does he or she have share in the blame? All these have gotten me thinking that I am really in need of advice. So...
1) At what point does Christian love and tolerance end and the need to speak up begin?
2) At what point does righteous indignation end and wrath begin?
3) Are my thoughts merely judgemental background thoughts to be ignored?
4) If several saints went to their deaths defending out Faith, what kind of creep am I for not even speaking up when the Faith and our beliefs are attacked in such a way?
4 Sub-question A) What kind of delusion of granduer do I have for comparing myself with Saints? :tongue:
4 Sub-question B) Aren\'t the Saints rol-models for us?
4 Sub-question C) Do I have ANY right to speak because I have so many planks in my own eye that it takes four city-blocks to turn around without hitting people?!?!? (Figuratively speaking, of course LOL)
5) *the crux of the matter* Should I pipe up or keep my trap shut?
5 Sub-question A) Should I wait until (and I\'m pretty sure he will) spouts off some other thing, or approach him about it next time we\'re talking?
Now, after you\'ve read such an exhaustively long post, any input is welcome!
Blessings,
Lenny
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John Chan
#7
(apologies for using taboo word on a bulletin board that has minors reading on it. I forgot myself. Forgive me.)
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TT
#1
My advice is to hold your toungue and listen. Find the common ground that exists and embrace that. Our love of Christ and bible passages are a great way to start. Live your life according to the narrow path and he will come to appreciate your beliefs.
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Mr
#11
When this happened to me, after biting my tongue for many months, I could not stay quiet and told the elderly lady that I did not believe the way she did and would never believe way. It is now too uncomfortable to be around her, so I stay away.
As for racial comments, I know that as a white person I must become vocally outraged, immediately and profoundly, or the speaker will think I agree with his disgusting opinions. Then I can calm down and ask if I have mis-understood what he said.
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EC
#13
That guy is obviously from the lunatic fringe. Regarding segregation & racism, St. Paul made it quite clear that God shows no partiality (\"Salvation is to the Jew first, and also to the Greek...\") Some make the argument that God had told the Hebrew people in the Old Testament to keep themselves separate from the other races and peoples around them and not to mix with them. While that is true, it was because they were idolaters, not because of their race (look at what happened to wise Solomon when he foolishly decided to marry one of them).
If he does not believe God is a Trinity, then he is likely a Jehovah\'s Witness. We consider them heretics. They are not Protestants in the traditional sense. I have had several dealings with them. I know Greek well and if I try to prove from the Greek Scriptures that they are wrong about the Trinity, they simply don\'t want to hear it. There are subtleties in the Greek that prove God is a Trinity that sometimes don\'t come through well in the various translations. I think that it is best to show him your Orthodoxy by living your faith. BTW, why not invite him to Liturgy with you? You never know!
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John Chan
#12
Hey Lenny? Where are you? Come back and tell us what\'s going on with you and your neighbors.
(I hope you did well on that skateboard competition.)
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LP
#2
I\'ve been out and about the past few weeks. The race was a lot of fun. I was taken out by in the second round of eliminations by a bro from Mississippi. In the first round, we were neck and neck, then a big head-wind came. I was never so happy to be a burly skater. My mass carried me through quicker than my skinny opponent. LOL Here\'s a shot my iwfe got from the top of the hill. I\'m on the left.
All in all it was a fun day and I learned a LOT about pulling double duty about throwing a race, main-taining the timer, making rule decisions all while racing. Fun times. My next race is July 15. After traveling and visiting with family the past week (and mixng all that home-cooked southern fried food with a lot of fast-food from the road), I need to get back into exericising and practicing if I\'m to do as well in that as I\'d like. :-)
About the neighbor: After considering the advice on the forum and speaking with my spiritual father about it, I decided to just consider the source and not actively approach him with the issues, but (as friendly as possible), speak up when he \"starts up.\" It just so happened, he \"started up\" when he saw me drinking a beer while grilling out in my backyard. We discussed the wedding at Cana (He turned the water into wine, not wine into water) and Psalm 104 (wine which gladdens the heart of man and oil to make his face shine). He at first tried to tell me that Christ turned the water into wine, then back to water, but my wife and I looked at him like he had lobsters crawling out of his ears (it\'s kind of hard to get me speechless, but I had no clue how to even react to that statement LOL) and he recanted. We agreed to disagree and that I need to quit smoking cigarettes, then he went back home. I told him if he wanted a beer or some salmon (which I was grilling), to stop back by. He didn\'t. I also found Numbers 12 to use when he discusses race issues (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers 12;&version=48;).
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LP
#3
Manny wrote:
BTW, why not invite him to Liturgy with you? You never know!
I have. He doesn\'t seem too interested.
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EC
#14
wvdhb wrote:
I also found Numbers 12 to use when he discusses race issues
Did you ever bring up Acts chapter 8, the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch? Does he realize that the Ethiopian was black? That the church he founded still exists as the Ethiopian Orthodox (Coptic) Church and is one of the most ancient Churches? That as a result, blacks were Christianized and came into Orthodoxy before a heck of a lot of whites (including us Greeks) were? This guy sounds like a real dimwit. Maybe you need to give him a copy of the Ante-Nicene Fathers or something, if he can read. Sorry, but people who think that Church History goes straight from Acts to the Reformation just totally boggle my mind.
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John Chan
#15
[whisper]
(side comment: Ethiopians are not black.)
[/whisper]
carry on. or not.
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LP
#16
Cool. Thanks!!
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MZ
#17
By all means, speak with your spiritual father about this.
And remember that we are called to do nothing less than to love our neighbor (in this case the neighbor physically next door), which is a very difficult thing to do.
I believe that all you owe your neighbor in this case is showing him that there is another way, and that that is where you are.
That may take the form of, \"I\'m afraid that we don\'t believe as you do,\" said with a sad smile as you retreat. Or, \"Actually, we cherish our icons -- see you later!\"
In Christ, Maria
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Giannis M
#18
If you count how many times in the Gospel Christ quoted the Old Testament to point out to the Pharisees that they were ignoring or skewing the Law, you will only conclude one thing - it\'s been 2000 years, and people are still interpreting things the way they want. From that point on, we should not be surprised to see thousands of denominations, and millions of fanatical followers of skewed theological doctrine.
I am probably one of the guiltiest people in this forum when it comes to confronting heresies, but lately I have been trying to take the position that I can not change these people, only God can, and that I should view every fanatical heretic as a temptation or test of faith. If the devil tried to tempt Christ in the desert, are you surprised that heretics would not test your faith from time to time? I want to make sure I have the answers to the heretical questions for myself, first and foremost. After that, if I can at least rattle the foundations of their argument with Biblical evidence, then they will at least not bother me again, but I can\'t expect to convince them of anything. (thank God for the book \"Handbook of Heresies and Parachristian Organizations\" - 1994 protopresbyter Antonios Alevizopoulos, PhD...that book has every Orthodox answer with Biblical quotations ready to go for almost every Protestant theory).
Giannis
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Christine
#19
side thought....about your questions that refered to comparing yourself with saints. I think we are all called to be saints, we are all supposed to be saints, and they are our role models, so we should follow their lead- thats how they became saints too, by following good role models. if we can find the strength and God gives us the grace to do something saint-like we should jump up and do it with joy and no fear!
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Rev Fr Athanasios Haros
#20
Herein lies the difficulty I have with situations like this. Neither of you, I suspect, are professional trained Theologians. St. John Chrysostom said \"For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumblings of sinners by force....For this reason a lot of tact is needed, so that the sick may be persuaded of their own accord to submit to the treatment of the priests, and not only that, but be grateful to them for their cure.\" Keep in mind, if someone does know Christ on a personal level, he cannot know Him on an intellectual level. Most of what I have read here is based on intellect and not relationship. Once this neighbor is introduced to the REAL Christ, trust me, he will WANT to know him intellectually.
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