haeretical or schismatic?

Last year the great churches in Germany (protest./rom.cath./orthod.) signed a statement of mutual recognition of the baptism. Here are the first two paragraphs (excuse please my very bad translation): Jesus Christ is our salvation. Through him God has defeated the sinners distance from God (Rom.5,10), to make us sons and daughters of God. Baptism as participation at the mystery of Christs death and resurrection means to be born new in Jesus Christ. He who receives this sacrament and in faith says Yes to the love of God, becomes united with Christ and at the same time with His people of all times and all places. As a sign of the unity of all christians the baptism connects with Jesus Christ, the foundation of this unity. Despite of differences in the comprehension of what „church“ means, there is between us a fundamental agreement of the baptism. Therefore we recognize every baptism, that is in accordance with the order of Jesus in the Name of the Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit and carried out with the symbol-act of dunking in water or rather pouring with water. And we are glad about every person who gets baptized. This mutual Agreement of Baptism is a expression of the bond of peace grounding in Christ Jesus (Ephes.4,4-6). The in this way carried out baptism is once only (single) and not repeatable.

Ioannis I feel the pain in your words. Some hurtful things were said to you and completely inappropriate. I know my words are poor and humble but let me say them anyway. I am sorry this has happened to you. Having said that, this agreement you mention rings true, I think I remember something to that effect but I thought it was made a little over 5 years ago. Assuming this agreement is true isn\'t your baptism valid regardless of any point made? Remember you were baptized into Christ, each church mentioned recognizes this. In short you were not baptized into john, bob, larry, moe, curly or anyone else. But into Christ. Not into Luther, or King Jimmy, but Christ. We weren\'t put into this life to judge you personally. What was said in the past is in the past, yes I can see it as hurtful, but now is the time to forgive. I realize that may be hard but give a little bit of past wrongs done everyday. (and no I don\'t mean to be flippant or insensitive about how you feel) Pray about it. I know I\'ve had some nasty things done to me in my life, this isn\'t about me but I personally have found more peace in my life letting those wrongs done to me go. Hatred, anger, fear, doubt and many other things like this only serve to pull you down (and tools of the devil). Instead focus on building yourself up in Christ everyday. We do this many ways, confession, the eucharist, prayer, alms giving, and many other things. Let go of the past, just assume the goal was to be with Christ not anyone else. The church in Orthodoxy is considered Christ\'s bride. Before you weren\'t spending time with his bride, and now you are, and that\'s what is important. Your salvation, your faith, your justification, your deeds, your soul is up to you. It is not judged by either someone else\'s standard nor is it judged by how you were treated, or what anyone else thinks. It doesn\'t matter how much your parents or a friend or any family member knows. All that matters is God\'s opinion. Enjoy a nice walk with your Dog, look for a little blessing God has given you every day you may not have realize or taken for granted. But most of all know you were and are loved. To quote St. Anthony, \"do not fear your God, instead love him.\"

Ioannis, Even here in Greece the Holy Synod recognizes the baptisms of Romans, Anglicans and Lutherans. Besides, in the early Church not all heretics were rebaptized when they returned to the Church. It depended on the type of heresy and how they had been baptised (in the Name of the Trinity/ triple/ single immersion etc) The following is the canon of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council in Trullo in 692 (which dealt with the canonical matters of the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils) regarding the reception of heretics: CANON XCV. THOSE who from the heretics come over to orthodoxy, and to the number of those who should be saved, we receive according to the following order and custom. Arians, Macedonians, Novatians, who call themselves Cathari, Aristeri, and Testareskaidecatitae, or Tetraditae, and Apollinarians, we receive on their presentation of certificates and on their anathematizing every heresy which does not hold as does the holy Apostolic Church of God: then first of all we anoint them with the holy chrism on their foreheads, eyes, nostrils, mouth and ears; and as we seal them we say--\"The seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost.\" But concerning the Paulianists it has been determined by the Catholic Church that they shall by all means be rebaptized. The Eunomeans also, who baptize with one immersion; and the Montanists, who here are called Phrygians; and the Sabellians, who consider the Son to be the same as the Father, and are guilty in certain other grave matters, and all the other heresies--for there are many heretics here, especially those who come from the region of the Galatians--all of their number who are desirous of coming to the Orthodox faith, we receive as Gentiles. And on the first day we make them Christians, on the second Catechumens, then on the third day we exorcise them, at the same time also breathing thrice upon their faces and cars; and thus we initiate them, and we make them spend time in church and hear the Scriptures; and then we baptize them. And the Manichaeans, and Valentinians and Marcionites and all of similar heresies must give certificates and anathematize each his own heresy, and also Nestorius, Eutyches, Dioscorus, Severus, and the other chiefs of such heresies, and those who think with them, and all the aforesaid heresies; and so they become partakers of the holy Communion. I pray that this will help put your heart at ease. God bless Julia

All, I have been edified and blessed to read the posts on this forum. Thank you Ioannis for posting the question and beginning the thread. Also thank you all who have posted your thoughts in love. I have learned something from you and read many of my own thoughts in your responses. Your words, however are more eloquent then mine might have been. Somsoc, I loved your retelling of the Orthodox answer to \"can those outside Orthodoxy be saved?\" - \"I don\'t know, can they?\" seems like a response that fits with many of the complicated controversies we are faced with today. I shifted into Orthodoxy at Pascha 2004. Before that, I was a fervent Protestant starving for connection and true communion with Christ our Saviour. I was even, at one point, one of the protestant missionaries OrthodoxRose mentions who went to Russia to \"save the poor unchurched people\" (at the time I truly believed that is what we were being called to do - may God forgive me!) I am so thankful to say humbly, that I was in fact one who found salvation through my experience in that mystical land. Having shared this, I can also add with deep conviction that my own experiences as a Protestant for over 30 years were Providential and that God\'s ways, though ineffable, are also perfect. Ioannis, your path to Orthodoxy is a blessing so I encourage you not to question it too deeply. Also, I am sad to read of the errors some have made in speaking with you about these matters. I agree with all who say we (they) should not judge. We are all fallen and striving to get back to perfect communion with the Lord. Who among us has not been tempted in our pride to lay claims to knoweldge of the ineffable ways of God? We all, even your dear priest, are flawed and need great mercy. One of the greatest comforts and beauties of our Mother, the Church is that we need not concern ourselves with matters that are greater then our understanding or our present need. It is enough to know that we have found our true home and to hope that those around us, whether Protestant, Rom Catholic, or otherwise disposed, will join us one day in our joy. So we pray for them and we commend their salvation to the Lord whose ways are higher then our ways. We also rely in faith on the counsel of the Holy Spirit, who will guide us and call to our rememberance all the teachings of the church when they are most needed and with the clarity that is required for the moment. I guess what I am trying to say is that this question does not seem to be one that can be settled in the rational, carnal mind of man where confusion, limited vision, and varied circumstances will always cloud the issue. But rather, in faith, let us commend our thoughts to God and allow His omnipresence and ineffable wisdom to console our heart in these matters. He who is greater then us all will sort through the hearts of each man (and woman) guiding us toward all truth and salvation. I write this more for myself then for any of you. I am a sinner, learning each day my own weaknesses and relying on your mercy as I stumble through the process of relearning my Christianity. Thankyou for allowing me to ramble. Thank you more so for sharing your thoughts and your lives here. AnnaChristine

as i know the patriarchate of Moscow said that the russian bishop who signed this text hadn\'t the permission to do so. there are several texts like this ,especially during the WCC activities,like the so called Balamd agreement. there were also some synods who have declared some kind of reunion:the two pseudosynods of Florence and Lyon. unfortunately,this is another sign of our times. its a sign of the religion of the future as fr Seraphim Rose wrote . without any intention to offend anyone i ll say one more thought. if we accept that outside of the Orthodox Church there is a valid baptism,why not to accept that every other sacrament is also valid? and if the protestant,latin etc sacraments are valid and lead to the salvation why to be orthodox? and why our saints fought so hardly against the heresies,even the minor ones? it seems that they (our saints) could see some thing that we cannot discern ,because we are myopes. maybe,what i say sounds strange or hard to the ears of some brothers converts. but this is what i ve learned from my little experience and conversations with several holy men and women i ll add another useful text from fr George Dragas (sorry for the multiple links but there is no table of contents in the website) http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_1.html http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_2.html http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_3.html http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_4.html http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_5.html http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_6.html

Thanks again, all of you. I\'d like to say: yes, I am ready to forgive. basically I like him, this priest. And I don\'t want to be angry with him. I pray for him. My priest with whom I had confession the day before yesterday said a wise word: \"With this God will test you\". And I think, he is right. God is asking me: \"Do you really want to go this way into the Orthodox Church from all of your heart?\". And maybe, the evil one is tempting me, too. Now, short beforehand my chrismation he trys to throw me off course through this trouble. Yes, I \"believe in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church!\". And with the Help of God I will go my way. Where elso should I go? He, The Lord alone has words of everlasting life. I have experienced so much blessings since I with His Church. So I pray to God and ask all His Saints to help me. I thank you that we can in love and respect talk about all this. In love, Ioannis

st Theophan the Recluse ,says also some interesting things in a letter titled [url=http://athos.forumup.gr/viewtopic.php?p=14856&mforum=athos#14856]Preaching Another Christ [/url] (i didn\'t upload it here because its a long one)

Hi again, I\'d like to comment on the issue of recognition of heterodox baptisms, and then clarify my comments from yesterday. The Orthodox Church doesn\'t traditionally think of these things in terms of validity. It is really something more like this.... Wendy\'s has been making a fine hamburger for many years, and it has a particular look, smell, taste, texture, etc. Now I could set up my own restaurant and sell burgers that are an exact replica of the ones made at Wendy\'s. But even if they provided exactly the same experience as a Wendy\'s burger, they wouldn\'t really be Wendy\'s burgers because they wouldn\'t be made by Wendy\'s. In the same way, the heterodox who have set up their own communities outside of the Church can perform their own rites that look exactly like those of the Church, but they are still not rites of Christ\'s Church because they are not done BY Christ\'s Church. The heterodox baptize, but they cannot baptize one into Christ\'s Church, since they are not within it themselves. When the Church has \"recognized\" heterodox baptisms, it has not recognized them as being baptisms into the Church. Rather, it has recognized that they share the appearances of the Church\'s baptism to such an extent that they are really only lacking in grace. It\'s like Wendy\'s sending me a letter and telling me that they recognize my burger to be the same as theirs. This doens\'t mean that I\'ve produced a Wendy\'s burger, but that I\'ve produced a burger that differs from Wendys\' only in being mine rather than theirs. What this means practically is that if Wendy\'s were to buy me out, they wouldn\'t have to change my burger to make it a Wendy\'s burger, but only bring it into the fold. In the same way, when we recognize heterodox baptisms, this simply means that they differ from ours only in that they are not baptisms into Christ\'s Church. So when these people come to Christ\'s Church, we simply embue their baptisms with grace and put our label on them, in the same way that Wendy\'s would adopt my burgers. The Church makes these recognitions in order to differentiate those bodies which baptize in a proper way from those that do not. Mormons baptize, but not in the name of the Trinity. So their baptisms are so lacking that when their members convert to Orthodoxy, they still need to receive a proper baptism. It varies from group to group whether or not heterodox baptisms are proper enough. For example, I was baptized as a Methodist. It was with water, and in the name of the Trinity, so while the Orthodox Church doesn\'t recognize that baptism as being a baptism into Christ\'s Church, it had to do very little to fill in what was missing in my baptism. It simply received me by chrismation, and gave me the grace of baptism in that very act. But some Methodists (and I\'ve met them!) find Trinitarian language \"patriarchal\" and so they only baptize in the name of the \"Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer.\" The Orthodox Church does not recognize such a baptism as resembling its own sufficiently. So if I had been baptized in this way as a Methodist, most Orthodox Churches would have received me by baptism rather than chrismation. (There used to be an explanation of this particular problem with Methodists on the Greek Archdiocese web site.) So these recognitions of heterodox baptism are not about recognizing these baptisms as baptisms into Christ\'s Church, but about recognizing them as being so similar in appearance that they are only lacking in grace. As for my comments yesterday, it is true that heresy separates us from God, but this does not take the label \"Christian\" away from us. \"Christian\" simply means \"follower of Christ.\" And it was a label originally put on Christians from the outside (first in Antioch, according to Acts). So the label applied to Christians of all stripes, whether inside or outside of the Church, since all of these people were trying to follow Christ. Notice that sin also separates us from God, but when we sin, we do not cease to be Christian. We simply become sinful Christians (which is what most of us are). To use again the distinctions that I made yesterday, sinning separates us from God, but not from being Christians, and not even from being members of the Church. Sinners are members in poor standing until they confess their sins, but they are members still. On the other hand, heresy separates us both from God and from the Church. But it still doesn\'t separate us from being Christian. Heretics must repent of their heresies and be received back into the Church. But they are still Christians. If they weren\'t, we wouldn\'t call them \"heretical Christians,\" but \"non-Christians.\" And lastly, apostasy (abandoning Christianity all together) separates one from God, from the Church, and from Christianity. An apostate is no longer a Christian at all. Most of this is tedious language play and doesn\'t really address your deeper concerns. Those can only really be addressed by God, by love and by time. But thanks for reading my rant. :) -Andrew

Thanks for your rant, Andrew. ;-) Theoretically I agree. I t sounds very evident. That heresy separates us from God is true on the one hand. But I see also that there are rom.s as well as prot.s who love and follow Christ from all of their heart - how can they be separated from God? There is not the fullness of the faith and there are maybe heretic views they share - that I quite believe. But the connnection to Christ is there - even if it musn\'t be so theoretically. But it is now going round and round. I don\'t want to stick obstinately to my point of view. With regard to me its all the same now. But not so in regard to my family and to friends. But let\'s consign this to God.

There is a great book: America and the Challenges of Religious Diversity by Robert Wuthnow that talks about a sociological study of how America (and really the world) has changed from ethnic neighborhoods to an extremely pluralistic reality. Our neighbors aren\'t Orthodox and the Irish Catholics don\'t all live in the \"south side of town\" while the Italian Catholics live in the north. But every one is everywhere under the sun. Our neighbors are Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Jews... Which then leads us to ponder how the Orthodox will relate to the other faiths; as brothers or as enemies? One will be in Love and the other in Violence. You will have to choose for yourself.

this is not a new situation for orthodox christians. Orthodox christians used to live in the same places with pagans,with jews (st Basil\'s doctor was a jew)heretics (arians,iconomachs,nestorians,monophysites etc) ,later with the muslims (Turks and Arabs) etc. Love is the only choice we have in our relationships . But this doesn\'t mean that we should live as kosmos (the \"world\") wants or to mix Church\'s truth with the heresies. First christians didn\'t share the same views with Jews or Romans,they didn\'t pray or worship with them but they didn\'t stop to love them. from the Epistle to Diognetus: For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred. To sum up all in one word--what the soul is in the body, that are Christians in the world. The soul is dispersed through all the members of the body, and Christians are scattered through all the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, yet is not of the body; and Christians dwell in the world, yet are not of the world. The invisible soul is guarded by the visible body, and Christians are known indeed to be in the world, but their godliness remains invisible. The flesh hates the soul, and wars against it, though itself suffering no injury, because it is prevented from enjoying pleasures; the world also hates the Christians, though in nowise injured, because they abjure pleasures. The soul loves the flesh that hates it, and [loves also] the members; Christians likewise love those that hate them. The soul is imprisoned in the body, yet preserves that very body; and Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens. The soul, when but ill-provided with food and drink, becomes better; in like manner, the Christians, though subjected day by day to punishment, increase the more in number. God has assigned them this illustrious position, which it were unlawful for them to forsake.

dear friend, i really don\'t know the american customs but here in Greece we use to talk a lot,discuss about everything and we like talking even when we diagree. this was also the meaning of the term \"forum\":a place to meet others and discuss freely about everything. the first forum ever is a place in Athens,named Arios Pagos where holy apostle Paul has spoken to the Athenians about Jesus Christ . when a dialogue is polite there is no need to call the \"policeman\" .

I am of the same opinion here as Misha; there is no harm in talking about a subject, even when the two parties are not in agreement. Also, I think there is some sense to his statement that Orthodox Christians living as neighbors with people of other faiths is not new, and does not requires some new code of behavior to deal with them. Of course we are to love our neighbor, just as the Samaritan loved the hapless Jew on the roadside; but that doesn\'t mean that we are to hold hands and affirm that everyone\'s truth is Truth. That way is the wide, easy path that leads to destruction. We can love others without denying that we have been given the fullness of the Revelation of Truth. On the other hand--it is not productive to compare the differing levels of economia that individual bishops use in discerning to rebaptize, to Chrismate, or to receive through Confession alone. Obey your bishop, always.

Yes, I have a stick here, no sense letting this old horse get away. LOL (couldn\'t resist sorry) But really I tend to agree this is a discussion. I don\'t think I\'ve really disagreed with much said here. I\'m sure someone else would have a different opinion on this and that\'s fine. Its as Misha says, its a forum. I really like how it was phrased too. I know I\'ve learned something from others on this post, maybe someone else will as well. Then again, maybe all that needed to be said was said. I don\'t know. Maybe we should have focused on what various bishops say on this matter rather than on our opinions and what we know of Orthodoxy, I don\'t know. What I do know is Chris loves us all. It rains on us all equally. He blesses us all. He created us all. And if or not people realize it or not we need Him in our life. And I commend anyone who is trying to get closer to Him, I just pray that their path leads them to the truth as we know it and its embraced. We all have our unique experiences that makes us who we are. Each of us has had our struggle. Perhaps the main point of this forum was not about the theology but about that human struggle. Or the old horse is dead and we should let it lay. I don\'t know.

Wow! How edifying most of the posts in this thread! Thank you Ioannis for starting this conversation. And I thank you trully because it is very good for me to be reminded of the significance of the gift my parents and godmother brought me to by having me baptized in the Church as a baby. Glory to God. I also wonder dear Ioannis whether your priest meant something a little different. In general I have not heard much Orthodox Theology about where the Holy Spirit goes and what He does apart from when they talk about the Holy Spirit infussing our Holy Sacraments or making God\'s work \"happen\". So maybe your dear priest was saying that we Orthodox do not consider Sacraments of other Churches valid (so we don\'t consider their Communion the same as our Holy Communion or their Ordination etc) I have not read nor do I understand very well the concept of \"energies\" of God versus His Being nor how or why it is the Holy Spirit who was necessary for Christ to get into our Panaghia (Theotokos) pure womb! Why couldn\'t Christ just go by Himself? (of course I don\'t really have that question, I accept that Christ is not completely separate from the other 2 persons of the Holy Trinity). But again I do not understand these things very well. I just suspect that perhaps that\'s all your priest was referring to and not that the Holy Spirit is not present everywhere! I also have to say I liked the way Pleebloo was able to explain that heretics are in fact Christians. Perhaps it sounds so bad in English but all it means is that their beliefs depart from the Truth. It does not mean that they are all of them knowingly or unknowingly forever damned. No! The heresy is damned and those that cling to it and deceive others to it willingly and in knowledge (the false prophets that Christ Himself warned us about e.g. in Mark 13:22). For those who are just raised/born into it or decide to join it without full understanding we do believe that Christ takes charge in the matter. Our beloved Lord wants everyone to be saved! It\'s true. And He can do it wherever each person is. For us it is to abide in Truth and defend it appropriately. I don\'t think that the word \"herecy\" is inherently bad. Not at all. It is useful to be able to name the Turth and separate it from falsehood. It is not good when it\'s only used to judge others only to make ourselves feel better as if we are more holy or deserve more love than others. That\'s bad thinking and useless since thankfully it is not a competition for who will be more holy, but a competition against our own selves to be more sanctified every single day. May we all help each other, forgive and also even speak out and correct in a loving manner so we can run the race with help. \"We reach salvation all together, but to Hell everyone goes alone\"