#0
Dear fellow Christians,
I'm reading the old testament and I'm reading about the many years that the people have lived then. I don't know how to take this. Are those the years that we count in our days? Or are these different concepts of years? Did Noah really live 950 years the way we count years in our days?
Thanks.
In Christ,
Nader
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#1
Thanks for your inputs.
Hearing what people think about this makes one more familiar with the subject. More inputs will be helpful.
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Rev Fr Athanasios Haros
#2
Does it matter? If he lived only 23 years would it change the saving message of Christ's incarnation? I encounter too many people who get hung up on details about years and days in the Old Testament. As Orthodox Christians we do not read Old Testament as a book of science but as a book of faith - The Faith as revealed by God for our edification. Whether Noah lived 950 years or not cannot and will not change whether we are saved through/in Christ or not.
Please don't misunderstand my comments here. The tact of \"discrediting\" the minutae details in scripture is used by many to discredit the message of Christ. I would hate for you or others to get lost in that battle. Similarly as Orthodox Christians we don't make an issue of whether a book was written by Moses or not either even though the Holy Tradition refers to \"as Moses said\" etc. The Scriptures, New and Old Testament, are the Holy Revealed Word of God written by the Church for the Church and bear their authority granted to them by the Holy Canons of the Church.
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Dr George Grebens, a.k.a. Artintel,
If you are an Orthodox Christian, which many people likely presume you to be since you are posting on this site, it would be customary for you to use the honorific \"Father\" or \"Fr\" when addressing or referring to a monk. Not doing so betrays a significant disrespect for the institution of monasticism. You don't have to think highly of me to do so, as it is not about deference to me (certainly not!), but rather to monasticism in general. Although, I feel confident at this point that you do not think highly of me. I’m not offended by your slight, but others may be, and you’re not setting a good example for others new to the faith.
Actually, there are many flaws in your response to being “caught”. You accuse me of a “cynical (reductionist) perspective”. Admittedly, I do tend towards cynicism, but that’s just due to my military experience, and it is not a philosophical school I ascribe to, but rather a transitory attitude. I, and I am sure others, will fail to see how questioning how a Russian Literature degree automatically grants one scientific prowess constitutes a “cynical (reductionist) perspective”.
Is it the idea that if you don’t have a degree in the subject, you can’t be an expert in it? That’s silly. I have not held out that idea. One can be an expert in many fields (even science!) without holding a degree. However, there are certain professions that require a degree, and consider those who attempt to practice their profession without said degree with remarkably low-esteem. Consider physicians. Would you trust a physician that did not have a degree? I should hope not! The medical degree works as a sort of “quality control” mechanism ensuring that the practitioner has a certain basis of both broad and specific knowledge to utilize. Trying to practice medicine without such a degree is “quackery”. Certain aspects of science, however, are more open to amateurism.
But, do you indeed have a Masters degree in science? Or, perhaps a Bachelor of Science? Please tell us.
You say I have passed judgment on your books. How could I? I have not read them. I simply made note that your self-aggrandizing attempt to covertly advertise your own books by pretending that you are someone other than Doctor George V. Grebens himself is ultimately dishonest - and likely a bit suspect, I would think.
As your background is in science fiction, I would certainly hope that you’ve taken some science classes. But it is curious that whenever you are asked to clarify exactly what hard science degrees (or experience) you have, you either:
a. belittle and ridicule the one asking;
b. obsfucate the issue with verbal misdirection and pseudo-scientific jargon (which professional scientists recognize as gibberish);
c. flat out refuse to answer; or
d. any combination, or all, of the above.
I am not going to discuss various schools of thought within (or without!) the scientific community. I am not implying that I am a scientist. Therefore, I do not have a viable frame of reference with which to discuss that.
I'm not posting in order to discuss science. I am posting in order to discuss you.
Your own published views in support of British-Israelism (which falls under the condemnation of the heresy of Phyletism, by the way), and the attempt at creating a scientific basis for such views, have already well established that you like to dabble in science. However, the mainstream scientific community thoroughly rejects those ideas because the “evidence” for it does not withstand testing and critique. Therefore, most professional scientists consider it, basically, ridiculous. It is not really much of a logical step to conclude that the average person is probably going to side with the great many certifiably degreed scientists, rather than a “lone wolf” amateur who tends to get rather rude when questioned.
You say that I haven’t answered Nadersaid’s question. That’s very astute of you. No, I have not answered his question, nor do I feel that my opinion on this matter would be helpful to anyone.
I popped into this conversation to clarify something about your attempted misrepresentation of yourself.
You say that my comments have the agenda to “kill the non-modernist interpretation any way one can”, yet you have no idea what my interpretation is. My, that’s odd. Are you adding psychic to your repertoire?
But, back to the current set of books you’re currently covertly advertising on Orthodox Circle. I’m not currently criticizing anything you have to say in them. Again, I’ve not read them – I cannot critique a work I’ve not read.
What I can critique, however, is your misrepresentation of yourself. You are none other than Dr George Grebens, who’s PhD is in Russian Literature (specifically the science fiction of Ivan Efremov). Therefore, referring to your own works as if they were done by someone else, is more than a little odd. Plus, there’s the implication of using the title “Doctor” as if it would somehow enhance your views on science. I’m sure you’re aware that similarly using your legal title of “Doctor” to, for example, practice medicine would be a criminal offense throughout most, if not all, States in the US. You’re a Doctor to be certain, but you’re not that kind of Doctor. I remind you, you’re highest expertise is in Russian Literature. At best, you have no more verifiable expertise in science than any other undergraduate in science, and possibly less.
Now, before you think I’ve contradicted myself, please read what I wrote carefully. I did not say that you did not have any expertise in science – I said that you have no verifiable expertise. You have never clarified (to my knowledge anyway) what science degree, or degrees, you may hold. You’ve never even mentioned what science courses you may have taken in University. From the information you’ve provided you are an amateur scientist who has no business using his academic title in a scientific context, and who has a tendency to come to remarkably unorthodox, and unfortunately dubious, conclusions.
You are a British-Israelist. You’ve published works on behalf of that cause. Unfortunately, that is a heresy (see Phyletism). By holding the views that you set forth in that matter, you excommunicate yourself from the Orthodox Church. If you’re not actually an Orthodox Christian, that will be of no concern to you, but it is dishonest and probably immoral for you to imply that you’re an Orthodox Christian in good standing when you own self-divulged opinions put you outside the mind of the Church.
I apologize to Nadersaid for Hijacking his thread. I really am sorry about that.
I just did not think it right for me allow Dr Greben’s misrepresentation of himself. As long as everyone knows that Dr Greben’s (a.k.a. artintel’s) doctorate is not in anything scientific, he is an amateur scientist engaging in covert advertising of his own work, and he is, by definition, a heretic who happens to have unusual views on race-relations, then feel free to make use of his writings as you wish.
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Hmmm...
Belittling and ridiculing me.
Check.
Obsfucating the issue with verbal misdirection and pseudo-scientific jargon.
Check.
Flat out refusal to answer direct questions.
Check.
Well, Artintel/Dr George Grebens, or whatever name you want to go by, at least you're consistent.
Oh, and you might want to go back over the dialogue from a year ago. I never said I was a \"bed ridden invalid\". I'm flattered that you keep my work, though.
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Don't the Fathers warn against taking the Bible too literally? I was reading Patristic Theology by Romanides and he mentions this, as does Lossky in Mystical Theology of the eastern Church(if memory serves, of course). In the end does it matter? Would Noah living 950 years or 95 years change the fact that God became flesh in the incarnation, and was crucufied to set us free from bondage and death? I'm no expert but debates such as these tend to distract us from the Way causing us to stumble and to fall away from our salvation. Also they seem to me to lead to disputes that tear the Chuch apart which is what demonic literally means.
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Yes, I believe Noah lived for 950 years as did Methuslah live for 969 years. The way I reason this .... God created Adam and Eve as the perfect physiological male and female. They were not genetically predisposed to any diseases or any other physical imperfections when God created them. After the fall this changed .... The sins of their ancestors gradually began to cumulate from generation to generation and, consequently, the physical disposition of their ancestors began to deteriorate. To paraphase Leviticus .... One's sins visit down to one's third and fourth generation. Its only by the grace of God that this \"age deterioration\" was at last set at 70 years.
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Well, I think people can *COMMENT* regardless of what book they've read or not. Whether they give an informed opinion or not is a different issue.
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#10
Since we have the answer of a priest for the question of this thread (\"Did Noah really live for 950 years?\") - should we not trust him and his clear statement instead of listening to a man who pretends that he knows everything better and deeper and more scientific then any other? Who uses an enormous amount of words to say nothing and provoking only one question: \"What wants the autor to tell us?\"
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Ioannis wrote:
Since we have the answer of a priest for the question of this thread ("Did Noah really live for 950 years?") - should we not trust him and his clear statement instead of listening to a man who pretends that he knows everything better and deeper and more scientific then any other? Who uses an enormous amount of words to say nothing and provoking only one question: "What wants the autor to tell us?"
Are you saying that \"priests are infallable\" ???
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Yes. He had a great retirement plan. :)
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#13
shepdog17 wrote:
Are you saying that "priests are infallable" ???
Not at all. Even priests have different opinions in this question.
But in this case here I trust a cradle orthodox with a theological education more then a convert who may have read a lot, but is a layman.
By the way - we adress a priest as \"Father\". Unless he has proven himself as unworthy
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#14
The last line I would like to cancel, but there is no revice function here.
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Christopher Matthew
#15

One would hope there is no special dispensation of godly favour to the cradle.


 


I would agree with Fr. Athanasius.


The literary tradition of the sacred scriptures maintained by the Church cause us, successive generations, to grow in love for the divine embrace of God with His creation in the Incarnation of His Son.

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Giannis M
#16

 


Sometimes God provides answers and examples in front of us, but they don't become obvious, and we end up in tangential discussions.


  We have a scientific / medical phenomenon of "Progeria" as a living example that God can accelerate the aging process such that our lives are reduced by 1/10 of that of a "previous" or "normal" generation.   Most children with Progeria don't make it to 20 years old, and by 10, they resemble someone who is in old age....


If we believe that Noah's ark was real, and that Noah's decendents were the only ones left on the planet after the flood, why can't we also believe / accept that those same decendents carried a Progeria-like "mutation" that accelerated the aging process in everyone AFTER Noah?  Just like we have examples today of people who are genetically "destined" to live 1/10 of the lives that others live, why couldn't Noah's decendants also live ~1/10 of 950 years?  This was done to fulfill the psalms ("and their years shall be 70, etc"), as well as the Biblical suggestion that due to our sinful state, God had to "cut our years" in hope that this may help us choose to repent.  


Of course, there are some other examples later on of people exceeding the new theoretical maximum of 120 years  (Symeon the Presbyter who received Christ as an infant, for example, or the 7 youths of Ephesus who helped prove the Resurrection was a real event), but these rare examples are God's exceptions for specific purposes.


Giannis

Yes, I believe Noah lived for 950 years as did Methuslah live for 969 years. The way I reason this .... God created Adam and Eve as the perfect physiological male and female. They were not genetically predisposed to any diseases or any other physical imperfections when God created them. After the fall this changed .... The sins of their ancestors gradually began to cumulate from generation to generation and, consequently, the physical disposition of their ancestors began to deteriorate. To paraphase Leviticus .... One's sins visit down to one's third and fourth generation. Its only by the grace of God that this \"age deterioration\" was at last set at 70 years.


Not including the issue of guilt and sin across generations, this idea of greater sin causing shorter life span seems to be disproved by the current generation living longer yet, many would argue,  sinning more.

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