Dear friends, For those of you who follow classical music, do you know of Orthodox composers John Taverner and Arvo Part?
Arvo Part is Estonian Orthodox. John Taverner is English/British and a convert to the Russian Orthodox Church in Britain.
I found no problems with the music, but I wonder your opinion on this: Part follows the Western liturgy in some of his works, and has works in Latin, as this is typical of classical music. However, he quotes the Latin Western version of the Mass with the \"CREDO\" including the Filioque! For shame! The music is beautiful! But for a person attempting to bring entertainment in a godly spirit, it is unacceptable to have a heterodox doctrine in the liturgy.
Truly, though, we don\'t go to church to be entertained. I guess that\'s part of my personal problem; I am easily bored. I find it hard to get to church, any church.
I believe Orthodoxy is the Truth, but the liturgy is not entertainment. That kind of convinces me of the worth of Eastern worship styles; this is for God, not man.
This is not to make us feel good (or bad for that matter). This is about connecting with God.
Anyway, it will be awhile before I am doing what I should. I need to get to church.
But my purpose here was just to note:
Part kind of fudged the liturgy with a Western bent, so it is entertainment, not Orthodox theology, that comes here.
Anyway, I need to do better, so I can understand if people are doing what they know not.
I still don\'t quite know what I am doing.
But no longer can I say (believe) \"who proceeds from ...\" The Father \"and the Son\".
It hurts my conscience to say that; that\'s kind of why I can no longer attend Lutheran services without feeling strange and not at home.
Oh well.
Take care.
Always,
Scott
:confused: :confused: :confused:
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#5
Regarding Sir John Tavener and his most recent composition: Tavener has some time ago apostasised from the Orthodox faith. Below are some quotes from various interviews:
John Tavener tells Charlotte Higgins how his life-changing encounter with an Apache medicine man led him to write a piece praising Allah for the Prince of Wales
\"The path I follow is still an Orthodox path,\" he says. \"You have to follow a path, otherwise it becomes a little bit new-age, a bit of this, a bit of that ... But I suppose I had a dream vision after a visit from an Apache Indian medicine man. Many people when they\'ve met American Indians have very strong dreams afterwards. I had a kind of vision from the Sufi Frithjof Schuon, who was a believer in the inner transcendent unity of all religions. And he seemed to be giving me permission, in a way, to work musically within other traditions. It wasn\'t that the Christian thing was failing me in any way, but rather that it enriched it by going into other things, particularly Hinduism and Sufism.\"
(June 11, 2007, The Guardian)
\"Until recently his work was strongly influenced by the Greek Orthodox Church - sustained chords, sinuous chants and spiritual themes. He has a house in Greece, and at his home in Dorset there are Orthodox icons around the fireplace. But now he has, he says, moved towards a \"universalist view\", in which all religions are equally valid.\" (The Telegraph (UK), 29/07/2004)
Composer John Tavener, Long Associated with the Orthodox Church, Turns to Islam for Inspiration
Sunday, October 17, 2004
The Independent on Sunday [London]
By Anthony Barnes
Sir John Tavener, the classical composer whose life and works have been guided by the principles of the Orthodox Church for more than two decades, has now turned to Islam for inspiration.
In 1997 his work found fame around the world when it was played at the funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales. The piece, Song for Athene, was written to the rules of the Orthodox Church, as almost all his work had been since he converted to the faith in 1977.
But Sir John says that working to these principles using set melodic formulas became a \"tyranny\" and that he no longer wishes to stick to a particular system. He attends church less regularly than in the past and finds it \"trying\" to deal with people who are overly Orthodox.
Last year Sir John had a falling-out with his spiritual mother, Mother Thekla, a Russian abbess who lives in a North Yorkshire monastery and whom he used to phone daily. She also provided the words to some of his works.
At the heart of their disagreement was Sir John\'s growing interest in Eastern religions, particularly Hinduism, and they stopped communicating last year. They have subsequently begun to exchange letters, but their relationship has been damaged.
Now he has composed a new choral work based on the 99 names for God in Islam, which are sung in Arabic. The work is expected to be premiered at Westminster Cathedral next year.
In an interview with BBC Music magazine, Sir John said: \"Every name has different music to it. There is no repetition at all. I did want to record my spontaneous reaction to the Arabic sounds.
\"I mean, when you say the names in English the Vast, the All-Merciful, the Punisher they seem ridiculous. In Arabic they have a resonance.\"
Asked whether he plans the piece to be a statement of solidarity with Muslims who have found themselves on the receiving end of public hostility, he said: \"It\'s possible. I was appalled by what happened [on 11 September], but I am more appalled that Islam now has such a terrible name in some quarters.
\"I love the Koran and I wanted to write something that was an affirmation of Islam rather than these terrible negations that one sees everywhere.\"
Although Sir John says he has not lost his faith in God, he admitted: \"I like going to church less and less. It strikes me now that all religions are as senile as one another. But I do pray within my heart all the time.\"
A forthcoming work he is planning to write, as if to emphasise his new-found freedom from Orthodox principles, is a theatrical composition based on the life of Krishna and influenced by Mozart\'s Magic Flute.
Sir John was formerly signed to the Beatles\' Apple record company, which released his oratorio The Whale in 1968. The Beatles were themselves influenced by Eastern culture, particularly George Harrison, who was a Hare Krishna disciple until his death in 2001.
However, Sir John\'s biggest breakthrough came 21 years after The Whale, when his work The Protecting Veil was performed at the Proms.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with an Orthodox artist or musician producing secular work, be it music, painting, sculpture or literature. If the content is not offensive or otherwise objectionable, there should be no problem. St Kassiane the Hymnographer, who is the only woman whose hymns have become a permanent part of the Orthodox liturgical cycle (for an 8th-century woman, much less an abbess, to be associated with music was most shameful - yet Kassiane\'s hymns were rightly deemed to be worthy) was also a prolific writer of non-religious songs, poems and prose. Many of these compositions survive to this day.
On the other hand, one cannot put the recent works of John Tavener in the same category. They are not secular works, but heavy with religious content, of a faith which is contrary to the Orthodox faith. To make matters worse, the premiere performance of his latest work in Westminster Cathedral raised the justifiable ire of many Christians, particularly Roman Catholics. One man summed it up best: \"Would Moslems be happy for Catholics to perform a musical piece in a mosque?\"
And the following from an Islamic source:
Would Sir John Tavener even be able to perform the \"The Beautiful Names\" in a mosque? It is extremely unlikely, one reason being that it is questionable whether the Names of Allah should even be put to music and sung by a choir.
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Mat SIE Eklund
#6
WOW, I hadn\'t heard that about Tavener. It\'s pretty disappointing but being a musician myself I\'ve seen some very artistic people swayed. I will pray that he is restored to his spiritual home in Orthodoxy!
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Friends,
Well put, that to judge someone\'s \"orthodoxy\" is rather out of the question for individuals, though the Church does have a legitimate charge to place a hedge around the flock in order to protect it when needed. And for us as writers/composers, consulting a mentor or guide is not intrinsically wrong, but just like the writers being discussed here, we will each be called to account directly for our works, musical or otherwise. That should always keep us on our toes.
That said, it is worth noting the inherent tension between music as liturgical and music termed \"sacred.\" Liturgical music must be crafted by and for the worship of a local assembly. Sacred music is an expressive -- perhaps according to Stravinsky, \"objectively expressive\" -- representation of the composer\'s response to the text. Very different products can and often should result. An individual\'s personal search in a sacred work, if it never strays far from \"official\" positions, may not seem at all genuine. Whereas, a composer who injects his inner striving too deeply into music meant for worship may impose personal emotional pressure on the assembly gathered for prayer and communion with God, not the composer.
Talk about delicate work!
-Dn Kevin
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#8
Cat Stevens was born Greek Orthodox but apparently the faith he was raised in didn\'t remain what he held to recently. He had an unpronounceable Greek name, all joking aside, but seriously, I think his father was a traditional Greek Orthodox man, maybe even
had his own restaurant or something like that, I can\'t remember. Anyway, Cat Stevens is now a Mohammedan and changed his named from his Greek name to Cat Stevens to Yusuf Islam, his \"Islamic\" name.
I think he was a New Age person for awhile,
maybe too.
Seals and Crofts were very New Age, and
they were Bahai people. Bahai is a very
interesting syncretistic faith, but rather
pantheistic and illogical.
Their song \"Hummingbird don\'t fly away, fly away ...\" is rather emotional and touching,
but it tends toward the warning of
worshipping and serving the creature more
than the Creator, Who Alone is Blessed ....
Anyway, we love animals, but no love is
greater than the love of God Our Father.
God save us all from falling.
Always,
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Aaron Haney
#9
I\'ve always felt that Taverner\'s music is explicitly or externally Orthodox while Part\'s music is implicity or internally Orthodox. In other words, Taverner wears it like a cloak while Part \"hides it in his heart\".
In watching the documentary \"24 preludes for a Fugue\" about Part and his work I was struck by his humility and sweet spirit. It seems his music wells up from an intense spiritual hunger and the result is something more fully integrated/digested in respects to Orthodox spirituality.
On the other hand, Taverner strikes me as more in the vein of the self-absorbed artist who crafts things in his brilliant mind and tends to pursue it as an end in itself. I was not completely surprised when I came across the article mentioned above a few years ago. It describes someone who has, IMO, an unhealthy trust in their own understanding and means, spiritually speaking. As a psychiatrist I would say he has many of the hallmarks of the narcissist.
For what it\'s worth.
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Manoli Maginas
#10
Believe it or not, I have met Taverner\'s \"SM,\" Mother Thekla, she actually came to our church once or twice. Wow. I\'ll pray for him!
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Reader Michael Malloy
#11
I personally think John Taverner is a troubled soul. His music is nto suitable in any way for use in worship. Much of it requires musical instruments, thus limiting its liturgal use. His music is also very \"intellectual\" for want of a better term. I studied to be a musicologist and I very much enjoy a lot of contemporary \"classical\" music. Taverner is not among those I chose to listen to.
Arvo Part is also a very contemporary \"classical\" composer. In my opinion, Arvo Part IS playing with a full deck. He\'s a gifted composer and not a nut like Taverner. Part uses the forms most often associated with the very long traditions of \"classical\" music. I see no problem with this. I think he keeps his faith seperate from his art.
Stravinsky also composed a few pieces based entirely on church forms. He wrote a MASS. He also composed a \"Bogoroditsa Devo\" and an \"Otche Nash\". Unfortunately, the demands of western music lovers forces crude modifications of these texts to fit Latin texts! As a most astonishing and truly bizarre twist, Stravinsky\'s \"Otche Nash\", written in Church Slavonic, is titled \"Notre Pere\" in library catalogs because the French appears on the title page. American academic libraries conform to the rules and pracitces of the \"Library of Congress\" in such matters of \"Name\" or \"Title\" \"Authority.\"
Those people who compose music as an art form rarely apply their talents to the specific needs of the Orthodox Church. Even the most famous pair from Russia - Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky - are seldom acutally used for worship. Why? Not because the music is very difficult but because the artfullness of the music draws too much attention to itself.
I very much appreciate and understand the complexities of Western church music. One of my favorite locations in the Renaissance and early Baroque for music is Venice. There composers such as Giovanni Gabrieli and Claudio Monteverdi wrote church music which stands the test of time well. As a trumpet player I get excited when I can play Gabrieli! Claudio Monteverdi\'s \"Vespero dell beate Virgine\", the religious twin to his opera \"lOrfeo\", is a remarkable piece of art music! I can\'t help loving this music, especially in performance by the Monteverdi Choir and orchestra led by John Elliot Gardiner.
Oh. But I strayed. Forgive me.
Reader Michael
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I just received a copy of CREDO. I had a discussion with one of the monks at the Hermitage of the Holy Cross in Wayne WV during the Pilgrimage Weekend. He said he believed the piece was COMMISSIONED by some liturgical Lutherans. Arvo\'s use of the filioque was purely due to the fact that it is part of their creed.
To our knowledge it is NOT part of Arvo\'s Creed.
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Marie Moffitt
#14
Why on earth should a composer who is Orthodox be expected to write only music that is suitable for liturgical use? Was Rimsky-Korsakov wrong to write his \"Russian Easter Overture\" or Tchaikovsky to use the Troparion of the Cross in the 1812 Overture?
As it happens, Sir John Tavener did write an English-language Divine Liturgy in the 1960s or 70s, at the behest of Archbishop Anthony Bloom.
Composing music is Tavener\'s secular job. I think it\'s nice that his music introduces people to Orthodox themes, but that\'s not why he writes it.
Tavener and Part are artists and don\'t pretend to be writing Orthodox liturgical music most of the time. Can\'t a painter paint a secular picture with an Orthodox church depicted in it?
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#12
MariaM wrote:
Why on earth should a composer who is Orthodox be expected to write only music that is suitable for liturgical use? Was Rimsky-Korsakov wrong to write his "Russian Easter Overture" or Tchaikovsky to use the Troparion of the Cross in the 1812 Overture?
A small clarification: The melodic motif of the Troparion of the Cross \"Save, O Lord, Your People\" from the 1812 overture is the standard melody for tone 1 in the Slavic churches. This melody is used very frequently for a large number of hymns, not just the troparion of the Cross.
OTOH, this troparion became a kind of battle-hymn during the time of Imperial Russia, hence Tchaikovsky\'s use of it in the 1812.
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Reader Michael Malloy
#15
\"Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don\'t.\" (Very old candy bar jingle)
IMO:
Taverner is a nut.
Arvo Part is NOT.
I agree with those who point out that each is a secular composer. Composing music is their JOB, not a religious vocation. In this respect, being Orthodox has no bearing on music they are paid to compose. IF they decide to freely compose music for church use it must follow the dogma of any church they may or may not belong to.
Reader Michael
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#16
I think one can be conservative and faithful to Orthodox tradition without becoming like a Protestant fundamentalist, refusing to think things through logically as far as the limits of human reason will go, and go fully to those limits, knowing in this life, of the things of God, we will understand and know only in part. While rationaiism and intellectual pride is not the way to go, false mysticism, relativism, and syncretism, irrationalism is not the way, either, and if Taverner tries to act as an alleged \"free thinker\" or \"mystic\", I reserve judgment to God\'s mercy: God will judge others; I judge no one (no man). Anyway, perhaps his doctrines are not in keeping with Orthodoxy; in that case, we should be cautious about listening too closely to his work.
I listened to his cello music cd, \"The Protecting Veil\" about the Blessed Theotokos, and found it rather strange.
Anyway, I guess prayer and incense and asking \"Through the intercessions of the Blessed Theotokos, LORD have mercy on us ...\" is sufficient. We don\'t need cello music to revere the Blessed Mother of God.
Take care.
Part is definitely Western Latin in his use of the Latin creed with \"Filioque\". It is OKAY to recite the Nicene Creed IN LATIN as LONG AS it SAYS \"qui ex Patre procedit\" and does not add the word \"FILIOQUE\".
Take care.
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#1
LegioXIIICrackpot wrote:
Whatever happened to the late Orthodox composer Basil Poledouris?
Well, I think ther\'s a clue in the word \\"late\\" ;)
Joking aside, do you know for a fact that he was Orthodox, or do you just surmise this because he has a Greek name?
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Markos
#18
Just wanted to mention another contemporary composer who is Orthodox, of Russian Jewish background -- Alexander Knaifel. His music is minimalistic and very soothing.
Another composer, whose works have been recorded by Capella Romana, is Ivan Moody.
Regarding Tavener, I love his \\"St. Mary of Egypt.\\" The refrain used there is \\"the ways to salvation are more than one.\\" That speaks to me of a \\"Christian universialism,\\" if you will. according to which there is One Savior, Christ the Lord, who saves diverse people in diverse ways, love being the crucial element. As He said, \\"I was hungry and you fed me...\\"
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Markos
#17
Just wanted to mention another contemporary composer who is Orthodox, of Russian Jewish background -- Alexander Knaifel. His music is minimalistic and very soothing.
Another composer, whose works have been recorded by Capella Romana, is Ivan Moody.
Regarding Tavener, I love his \\"St. Mary of Egypt.\\" The refrain used there is \\"the ways to salvation are more than one.\\" That speaks to me of a \\"Christian universialism,\\" if you will. according to which there is One Savior, Christ the Lord, who saves diverse people in diverse ways, love being the crucial element. As He said, \\"I was hungry and you fed me...\\"
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