MM
#0
If someone reads what I have to say here and wants to block my posting, I will understand. I am searching for answers, I am hoping no one questions their faith on my account. I am struggling, not with my belief in God. God is an obvious truth. Not even with my faith in Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. I believe in the Trinity. I am simply wondering if perhaps the church does indeed embrace all believers in Christ who believe in the Trinity. I saw online Roman Catholic incorrupt saints. Part of coming to Orthodoxy for me was coming because Orthodoxy is supposed to be the one and only church that imparts grace. I feel like I have seen many instances where TRUE grace seems to be imparted to even Baptist Communion. There was an instance where a man was given communion after he confessed his sins and he was deathly ill. He recovered his health and began to repent more fully (this is atleast the way I remember it: maybe I am remembering it wrong). This was a Baptist minister named Chuck Coleson. I have read Seraphim Rose's book Orthodoxy and the religion of the future, but it is not all that cut and dry. There are instances that really are very Grace filled. I believe that the Pentecostal church is in deep deception, but that does not mean that every protestant is deceived by it. Many protestants have stood against it. I also heard of a man raising from the dead after 2 days and telling the story of how he was escorted by two angels. He saw heaven and hell, and after that event he was brought to Jesus. Jesus told him, \"I should let you go there,\" pointing to hell. The man was told it was because of his lack of forgiveness. He began preaching Forgiveness immediately telling others that it did matter if they forgave and that they couldn't go to heaven without forgiving. Jesus clearly was teaching that once saved always saved is not true. There are many other things as well. I am struggling because I think others in other denominations have a right to be called the Church as well. Jesus said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against the church. The church is still standing even if sinful people are divided. It is the church that frees us from hell, therefore hell does not prevail. The 7 ecumenical counsels main point was to say the Trinity is God and Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God. Many protestants believe this. Why am I unable to take communion at a church that believes in the Trinity? I don't have to understand to believe, but it seems to me that the church is All that encompasses the Trinity and Christ's divinity. Since demonic deception exhists, we don't believe every miracle even if it happens in the Orthodox church, so that does not mean we need to believe what happens over in other churches either, but that some of them are true. We can believe in our authentic tradition, but perhaps without excluding ALL protestants. Forgive me, and if anyone feals that what I have said is heretical, please feal free to ask that this message be removed. If I am wrong I do not want to contaminate the rest.
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Rev Fr Athanasios Haros
#5
RUN TO YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER!
You have many questions that should be answered and can be answered while others may not be. Your question about receiving Holy Comunion in \"a church that belives in the Trinity\" reveals (no offense) your lack of understanding the Holy Orthodox Faith. When we share the chalice in Holy Communion it reveals not just that we believe in the Holy Trinity but that we believe in the same doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This doctrine includes things such as atonement theology and the raputre, which in both cases the Orthodox Church rejects. The reality of these theological differences are too great to go into detail here which is why I end where I began...
RUN TO YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER!
In Christ,
Father Athanasios
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JD
#4
Who told you that \"Orthodoxy is supposed to be the one and only church that imparts grace\" ??? Only an Orthodox fanatic would make a statement such as this.
I was taught that the Orthodox Church contains the \"fullness\" of the true faith .... 100% of the pie so to speak. All other religions, to one degree or another, consist of less than this fullness .... whether it be 90, 80, 50% ect. Also, \"Grace\" is a GIFT from God .... I would dare to say that grace, True Grace, can be dispensed to individuals who would belong to a religion that has 0% of the pie.
In addition, it was discerning of you to make mention of \"demonic deception\" on this topic.
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MM
#1
shepdog17 wrote:
Who told you that "Orthodoxy is supposed to be the one and only church that imparts grace" ??? Only an Orthodox fanatic would make a statement such as this.
I was taught that the Orthodox Church contains the "fullness" of the true faith .... 100% of the pie so to speak. All other religions, to one degree or another, consist of less than this fullness .... whether it be 90, 80, 50% ect. Also, "Grace" is a GIFT from God .... I would dare to say that grace, True Grace, can be dispensed to individuals who would belong to a religion that has 0% of the pie.
In addition, it was discerning of you to make mention of "demonic deception" on this topic.
There is a difference between God of His own will imparting grace to His creation regardless of religion (we all need grace even to breathe or blink or even eat a meal) and sacramental grace that is unique to the True Church. Demonic deception does indeed exist, and I am hoping that I am not myself being deceived by thinking the way I am thinking. Even Orthodox believers are told to beware of the enemy and not to believe your own thoughts. There are thousands of examples of false grace that are none other than obvious demonic deception, like the tongues speaking pentecostals, because it elevates the pride and throws the adherants into delusion and seperates them from salvation. My case as far as True grace in regards to protestant is based on miracles that I doubt the enemy would or even could do. A miracle that points to the Trinity or incarnation of Christ specifically regarding the body and blood of Jesus Christ healing people is hard to imagine to be any sort of deception. Jesus did say, \"Many will come in my name and perform signs and wonder that if possible they will deceive even the elect.\" (I am paraphrasing from memory). Just because something looks like a miracle or grace does not make it grace. Many times God's goodness reins over pagans, but I would say that any miracles that happen are almost always demonic delusion to keep them from the TRUE God. The antichrist will also mimic many miracles of Christ and impart a FALSE grace to deceive the nations. We CANNOT believe that this unique grace is anywhere except in the circle of Christians. Arius' guts spilled out for denying the Divinity of Jesus Christ. I would say this is a warning against such beliefs, ESPECIALLY if we know better. God is good though. A Roman persecuter named Trajan was accepted into heaven by the prayers of St. Gregory the Dialogist. He was a pagan and a murderer who sentenced people to death for not renouncing Christ. God's mercy ran deep and His Grace according to His will was given to one who was not Christian. God can and will do as He pleases. My question is that if this special grace that is a sacramental grace may also be among protestants and catholics. It is an entirely different thing for a saint to be incorrupt. That seems to be a special grace given only to certain elite saints. There are incorrupt Orthodox saints, but also Catholic saints. I also mentioned some stunning things that are among the evangelicals that I simply have a problem with labeling as demonic deception. There simply seems to be atleast a small indication that grace is there. The grace that is unique to the church.
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MM
#2
Father Athanasios, thank you for your advice. I talked to my spiritual father about this and I got the answers to my questions. Orthodoxy IS the true faith. The explanation I received is completely satisfactory, and makes perfect sense in the light of ALL things. We certainly should NOT take communion at other churches. I can see why the church is so strict on that issue now. It is actually paradoxically out of love and concern for our spiritual health that the church has made that decision. God bless!
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Rev Fr Athanasios Haros
#3
ilovespyridon wrote:
Father Athanasios, thank you for your advice. I talked to my spiritual father about this and I got the answers to my questions. Orthodoxy IS the true faith. The explanation I received is completely satisfactory, and makes perfect sense in the light of ALL things. We certainly should NOT take communion at other churches. I can see why the church is so strict on that issue now. It is actually paradoxically out of love and concern for our spiritual health that the church has made that decision. God bless!
Praise God! that you received answers to your questions. \"If any of you lacks widsom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven annd tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.\" James 1.5-7
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