FASTING = SELF-LIMITATION, ABSTINENCE, OBEDIENCE, SELFLESSNESS = FAITH & WORKS

\"Then Spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples, saying, The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses\' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye in the manner of their works: for they say and do not do.\" (Matthew 23:1-3) The commentary of St. Theophylact will be used to interpret the meaning of these verses. St. Theophylact: \"When He has shut the mouths of the Pharisees and shown them to be incurably diseased, then He speaks about them. He speaks about their life and manner of living, admonishing His listeners not to despise their teachers even if they have a corrupt life. At the same time He shows that He is not in opposition to the law, but rather desires that the law be practiced even though those who teach it are unworthy. For, He says whatever the teachers say, you must treat as if it had been spoken by Moses, and indeed by God. Then should everything be done that they say, even if is bad? We would answer, first that a true teacher would never even dare to exhort someone to do evil. But then, supposing that there were someone encouraging and evil life, we would say that such a man is not from the seat of Moses, nor does he give utterance from the law. The Lord speaks of those sitting in the seat of Moses, that is, those who teach the law. Therefore, one must listen to those who teach something from the divine law, even if they themselves don\'t practice it. It seems apparent that those who follow the letter of law are deemed Pharisaical, however the Holy Fathers call those who justify themselves like the Pharisees since the Pharisees justified themselves and did not follow the law. Did Christ not just say... all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye in the manner of their works: for they say and do not do.\" (Matthew 23:3) Should we neglect the Holy Teachings of our Mother Church and those of St. Nikodemos, St. Ambrose and many other countless Saints... or is their teaching on fasting too hard? Are we not exhorted to follow what our Teachers of the Faith tell us to do in order that our souls may be saved?

I agree Moses. However, Christ also says that we\'re supposed to fast without anyone knowing (Matthew 6:16-18). Anyone find the quote from Paul yet?

Yes and i also agree with that. :) It should not only be an outer fast, but an inner one too. I think the quote you are looking for is not directly out of the mouth of St. Paul, by from Christ. \"And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican\" (Matthew 18: 17).

Now I see where this is coming from. This quote from Matthew is a little out of context, though in the original citation, he was probably thinking in the context of Matthew 18:15-22. The context says that if your brother is sinning (it\'s not talking specifically about fasting), you should first tell him yourself, privately. If that doesn\'t work, then you should get 2-3 witnesses. If that doesn\'t work, then the whole church should be told. This elder who was cited was a spiritual father, and commonly told people about their sins privately. I wanted to mention this tangential point just because I\'ve seen examples recently where the opposite took place. The church was told about a person\'s sin, then the person was taken aside. He was humiliated and was told not to come back before he recanted what he did If the person had been taken aside privately first, then the person may have been more likely to repent (God only knows).

Yes you are right, the Saints are not always 100% correct. Only Christ!

To be perfectly honest, I handled the situation, i.e., taking the offender to task, almost as badly as the original situation. Lord have mercy on me!

According to St. John Chrysostom, fasting is a medicine and medicine must be administered by a doctor (priest). We are not like Roman Catholics where one size must fit all in regard to our practices. I get a little disturbed when I see folks taking a maximalist approach to fasting as they try to strong-arm others with words from elders....many of these elders were writing to monastic audiences. The reason I am disturbed is because we have many folks that are new to Orthodoxy. They come into the church full of enthusiasm and a desire to meet the highest levels of ascetic labors. But enthusiasm and desire can only carry the uniniated so far and thus, many converts become overwhelmed by the struggle which is far beyond their physical and spiritual ability. They then give up and leave Orthodoxy. As a cradle Orthodox Christian of Syrian descent I really think it is irresponsible for laymen to exhort everyone to fast at the highest level without regard to an indiviuduals situation. For this reason, I honestly believe laymen should keep their fasting beliefs to themselves and let the doctors (priests) administer the medicine individually to their patients. I am sure no one would want the to have a weaker brother\'s fall from grace due to what one has written or copied from the lives of the Fathers. We laymen are not priests or elders so we have no business telling our weaker brothers in the faith how to fast.

Just wanted to shine some light before I refer to the Holy Fathers later on tomorrow, once again and NOTHING I WILL SAY IN THE FOLLOWING POSTS EXCEPT FOR THIS POST IS FROM MYSELF AS I HAVEN\'T DONE SO IN POSTS BEFORE, I HAVE ONLY POSTED WHAT HOLY FATHERS AND SAINTS HAVE SAID!!! You said we are not like the roman catholics where one size fits all, from what I gather you are saying... we are instead like the protestants where tens of thousands of sizes fit all!!!! Forgive my harshness, but Truth from the Fathers of Holy Orthodoxy is Truth. Saint Nikodemos says that all the faithful, monastics and laity are commanded to obey the commandments... not just monastics, or only clergy. Once again, I hate to single people out, but to those out there who find this teaching hard, stop leading others who are sensitive astray. The Holy Orthodox Church is clear on this issue. Forgive me for saying what I had to say.

Moses, your last post reminds me of a line in the Princess Bride- \"I do not think it means what you think it means.\"

If I can comment on my own post... it is a great responsibility, when quoting a saint, to get not just the words right but the meaning as well. I get frustrated when people throw quotes around. This one said this. That one said that. Who was he talking to when he said it? How many people were listening? Did he mean for it to be a blanket statement or was it personal advice, because, good advice for one person could be bad advice for another. I trust that most people are not getting fasting advice from the posts on these forums. But if they are, I feel confident to be in a position to speak. Although there are fasting guidelines- fasting is a gift we offer. Fasting is a discipline and an expression of love. Fasting is not so that we suffer but so that we learn to depend on God. Each will offer what they can to the best ability that they can. If it is out of duress, then it is a diet- a menu. If it is an offering, then it is to spiritual growth.

No my zealous friend, you are wrong. There are fasting guidelines given by the Church but it is up to the PRIEST (not you or I) to tell others how they should fast. The priest is the doctor, not you or I! He knows if an individual has an illness or if a woman is breast-feeding, or if a person is required to eat certain foods due to health issues or if someone is ready to take on a stricter form of fasting. I stand by what I have said...DO NOT strong arm others into fasting according to what you believe the fathers and elders have taught. It is not your place to interpret the elders then to chastise or exhort others. You are only a layman. Keep your eyes focused on your own fasting rule and don\'t judge your brothers.

My dear sister Tamara... If i have judged forgive me. I have not said my own opinion. I only posted the Fathers sayings. And I\'m only warning others not to say their opinions on fasting, because who is to say they are right. I myself have tried not to post my opinions except for my warning to others who are sensitive for this sole purpose. If I have posted any opinion, please discredit my opinions only, and not the writings of the Holy Fathers because I am nothing and they are full of Light. To ostonvasi, I once again have not spoken my mind, but posted the Fathers and Saints. But forgive me for saying, you have posted your opinion without quotes from the Fathers. Forgive me for my criticism, the only reason I am picking on these tiny issues is because only the Saints should be our examples along with the Most Holy Theotokos and the Master of All our Lord Jesus Christ. Forgive me Kerygma, but I do not recall stating how much I fast nor my prayer rule nor telling others to disobey their spiritual Fathers and to make me their master. I am only trying to state the Truth as it comes from the mouths of the Holy Confessors of our Church.

Moses, there is no need to ask for forgiveness. Your opinions are different than mine. Your opinions are revealed in the quotes you choose to post.

To be more accurate, you posted *some* of the Fathers\' sayings. You did not supply all the Fathers\' sayings, which would be impossible. What one chooses to leave out reveals at least as much about one\'s opinion as what one decides to post. You decided to post those fathers who follow a certain line of thinking. Fasting, though, is more complex than this. To be fair, one would have to post the fathers who disagree with the ones that have been posted. For example, one talks about fasting being a spiritual discipline that makes one stronger. Paul, though, says that the weaker brother distinguishes between meat and vegetables. How does one reconcile these two opinions? I don\'t want to belabor the point about context, but I think that the author\'s intention and intended audience should be distinguished insofar as we are able.

And just a quick question before the night is over.... which of the Holy Fathers did not fast? Which of the saints did not fast, save for the ones who were martyred not yet being Christian or St. Dismas the wise thief on the cross and other rare exceptional cases? I believe one reconciles them with the interpretation of the Holy Fathers who were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. I myself cannot answer this question unless I were to read what the Fathers say about it. If you have any commentaries on the Fathers about this, please let me know as I am interested as to what this exactly means. Thanks. :)