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Kerygma wrote:
Fascinating and tragic. I can only imagine the pain and damage done by such insensitivity.
I'm also a bit mystified by the "scriptural" quote attributed to the elder. In my estimation, it doesn't quite fit. I'm wondering if this was the passage to which the elder was referring. In addition, I'm wondering... "if" the elder was referring to this passage, is it possible that he was mistaken? After all... elders have made mistakes as have the Holy Apostles. I'm not saying this was a mistake, but I am emphasizing that only our Lord is perfect in His understanding and utterances.
Kerygma wrote:
Fascinating and tragic. I can only imagine the pain and damage done by such insensitivity.
I wanted to mention this tangential point just because I've seen examples recently where the opposite took place. The church was told about a person's sin, then the person was taken aside. He was humiliated and was told not to come back before he recanted what he did If the person had been taken aside privately first, then the person may have been more likely to repent (God only knows).
According to St. John Chrysostom, fasting is a medicine and medicine must be administered by a doctor (priest).
We are not like Roman Catholics where one size must fit all in regard to our practices. I get a little disturbed when I see folks taking a maximalist approach to fasting as they try to strong-arm others with words from elders....many of these elders were writing to monastic audiences. The reason I am disturbed is because we have many folks that are new to Orthodoxy. They come into the church full of enthusiasm and a desire to meet the highest levels of ascetic labors. But enthusiasm and desire can only carry the uniniated so far and thus, many converts become overwhelmed by the struggle which is far beyond their physical and spiritual ability. They then give up and leave Orthodoxy. As a cradle Orthodox Christian of Syrian descent I really think it is irresponsible for laymen to exhort everyone to fast at the highest level without regard to an indiviuduals situation. For this reason, I honestly believe laymen should keep their fasting beliefs to themselves and let the doctors (priests) administer the medicine individually to their patients. I am sure no one would want the to have a weaker brother\'s fall from grace due to what one has written or copied from the lives of the Fathers. We laymen are not priests or elders so we have no business telling our weaker brothers in the faith how to fast.
TamaraHN wrote:
According to St. John Chrysostom, fasting is a medicine and medicine must be administered by a doctor (priest).
We are not like Roman Catholics where one size must fit all in regard to our practices. I get a little disturbed when I see folks taking a maximalist approach to fasting as they try to strong-arm others with words from elders....many of these elders were writing to monastic audiences. The reason I am disturbed is because we have many folks that are new to Orthodoxy. They come into the church full of enthusiasm and a desire to meet the highest levels of ascetic labors. But enthusiasm and desire can only carry the uniniated so far and thus, many converts become overwhelmed by the struggle which is far beyond their physical and spiritual ability. They then give up and leave Orthodoxy. As a cradle Orthodox Christian of Syrian descent I really think it is irresponsible for laymen to exhort everyone to fast at the highest level without regard to an indiviuduals situation. For this reason, I honestly believe laymen should keep their fasting beliefs to themselves and let the doctors (priests) administer the medicine individually to their patients. I am sure no one would want the to have a weaker brother's fall from grace due to what one has written or copied from the lives of the Fathers. We laymen are not priests or elders so we have no business telling our weaker brothers in the faith how to fast.
ostonvasi wrote:
Moses, your last post reminds me of a line in the Princess Bride- "I do not think it means what you think it means."
moses916 wrote:
Just wanted to shine some light before I refer to the Holy Fathers later on tomorrow, once again and NOTHING I WILL SAY IN THE FOLLOWING POSTS EXCEPT FOR THIS POST IS FROM MYSELF AS I HAVEN'T DONE SO IN POSTS BEFORE, I HAVE ONLY POSTED WHAT HOLY FATHERS AND SAINTS HAVE SAID!!! You said we are not like the roman catholics where one size fits all, from what I gather you are saying... we are instead like the protestants where tens of thousands of sizes fit all!!!! Forgive my harshness, but Truth from the Fathers of Holy Orthodoxy is Truth. Saint Nikodemos says that all the faithful, monastics and laity are commanded to obey the commandments... not just monastics, or only clergy. Once again, I hate to single people out, but to those out there who find this teaching hard, stop leading others who are sensitive astray. The Holy Orthodox Church is clear on this issue. Forgive me for saying what I had to say.
My dear sister Tamara... If i have judged forgive me. I have not said my own opinion. I only posted the Fathers sayings. And I\'m only warning others not to say their opinions on fasting, because who is to say they are right. I myself have tried not to post my opinions except for my warning to others who are sensitive for this sole purpose. If I have posted any opinion, please discredit my opinions only, and not the writings of the Holy Fathers because I am nothing and they are full of Light.
To ostonvasi, I once again have not spoken my mind, but posted the Fathers and Saints. But forgive me for saying, you have posted your opinion without quotes from the Fathers. Forgive me for my criticism, the only reason I am picking on these tiny issues is because only the Saints should be our examples along with the Most Holy Theotokos and the Master of All our Lord Jesus Christ.
Forgive me Kerygma, but I do not recall stating how much I fast nor my prayer rule nor telling others to disobey their spiritual Fathers and to make me their master. I am only trying to state the Truth as it comes from the mouths of the Holy Confessors of our Church.
moses916 wrote:
I have not said my own opinion. I only posted the Fathers sayings.
And just a quick question before the night is over.... which of the Holy Fathers did not fast? Which of the saints did not fast, save for the ones who were martyred not yet being Christian or St. Dismas the wise thief on the cross and other rare exceptional cases?
I believe one reconciles them with the interpretation of the Holy Fathers who were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. I myself cannot answer this question unless I were to read what the Fathers say about it. If you have any commentaries on the Fathers about this, please let me know as I am interested as to what this exactly means. Thanks. :)
For example, one talks about fasting being a spiritual discipline that makes one stronger. Paul, though, says that the weaker brother distinguishes between meat and vegetables. How does one reconcile these two opinions?
moses916 wrote:
which of the Holy Fathers did not fast? Which of the saints did not fast, save for the ones who were martyred not yet being Christian or St. Dismas the wise thief on the cross and other rare exceptional cases?
It seems to me that we have two parties on this thread, each getting upset at something that really hasn\'t been said by the other.
I can\'t imagine that anyone would argue that fasting of some kind is not essential and incumbent on us all for spiritual growth. Even that basic fasting, fasting from evil--who could deny that that is necessary?
It also doesn\'t seem to me that anyone is telling anyone else how to fast. If one\'s spiritual father has mitigated one\'s fasting, well and good. But that is an exception to the general practice of fasting during the church year.
It\'s not at all out of place for a layman to quote edifying passages from the Fathers. St. Nektarios did the same when he was a layman--as an employee writing notes for customers on packing paper.
The original post on this thread was about how the Church\'s fasts had been neglected--and it offered some advice on how to keep the fasts. I don\'t see what the problem with this was unless one wants to say that the Church does not tell us to fast in certain ways at certain times. To me, it seems that the only reasons why the practice of fasting is not universally known or followed in the Church are ignorance and negligence.
I\'m not trying to accuse anyone of this. It just seems to me that postings on each side of the debate have an intended audience which has not yet appeared on this thread. I find that a lot on Orthodox Circle.