Rev Fr Athanasios Haros
#0
I can\'t remember how to include a poll on the forum, so I\'ll just post my comment about the pews poll.
I do believe pews are a hinderance to basic Orthodox worship, but the immediately removal might be more destructive than beneficial. Some say we shouldn\'t have pews because we shouldn\'t sit down during worhsip. Then why are there chairs for monastics and times for them (the kathismata - which actually means seated hymns) to sit? Should monastics be able to sit and not those of us in the world? And there is the point of process in Theosis - especially here in America where we have a higher conversion rate than in Orthodox countries. We shouldn\'t expect every convert to have aquired \"Orthodox legs\" as I like to call them and stand for over 3 hours. This takes training and time. There is also the fact that kneeling is not really a Sunday experience anyway, so pews don\'t really get in the way of a Sunday experience. After all, most of our people have become Sunday only attenders. This is obviously NOT the preferred, yet it is the reality of our current situation.
In short (believe it or not this is my short version) to immediately remove pews from our churches should evolve out a communal uderstanding that they are in the way and then it makes sense to remove them. Until our worship actually develops past \"It come to church on Sunday to hear a good sermon\" and becomes more Orthodox, then eventually communities will see the benefit of removing them rather than the detriment to keeping them.
My $0.02
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I\'ve slept plenty of times in those \"braces\" at 5:30 am on Athos. I\'d choose them for sleeping over sitting up in a pew!
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Rev Fr Athanasios Haros
#43
artintel wrote:
See Poll - inspired by Fr. Athanasios' posting here.
Unfortunately your options include nothing about placing the removal of pews in the context of the worship experience/development of a particular parish. As I said ealier in this thread....if a particular parish is currently experiencing a Sunday ONLY worship which does not call for prostrations, the pews are not a hinderance but rather just a way to sit when needed sermons and the such. As for seeing icons of the saints.....there are a lot of practices in today\'s modern Church that is not depicted in Icons on the walls of our churches since Icons tell a theological rather than historical reality. In short (not really short) I think the poll is biased, but then again life is biased and I am the most guilty of posing questions that lead people to my ideas.....
Have a blessed Lent - at least we can do prastrations.... :)
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Marie Moffitt
#53
There is a fundamental problem with most of the polls people post. Admittedly, over the years my jobs have sometimes required me to create polls, so I\'ve had to think about them more than most people.
It\'s important to give everyone a chance to answer honestly. You always need an item that is \"other\" or \"no opinion\" or \"not applicable\" or \"none of the above\" something like that. (\"All of the above\" can also be useful.) Anything else is a dishonest attempt to force people to sound like they agree with you.
Examine your premises. Don\'t create something on the order of \"When did you stop beating your wife? A) Ten years ago. B) Five years ago, or C) One year ago.\" By the same token, polls that ask everyone which candidate they favor, and then list candidates of only one political party are dishonest. At least include a category for \"other!\"
If you really want to know what people think about something, give them the opportunity to express any of a wide range of opinion groups. Don\'t make each of eight options so specific and detailed that it becomes impossible for most people to take the poll with any honesty. If you are just trying to manipulate people into seeing things your way, then write a blog entry rather than creating a poll.\"
The author of this post is a 1.) Blonde 2.) Brunette 3.) Redhead. Check my picture for the answer.
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I was at an ordination once where the bishop gave rather strong advice to the newly ordained deacon.
What the bishop said was that the new deacon was NOT--not then and not when he should later be ordained--to use various agendas to improve the church. And he gave examples of agendas--not the list of conservative or liberal agendas a Westerner would expect, but changes a devout Orthodox would appreciate. One was \"liturgical correctness;\" I don\'t remember the others, but they all sounded like worthy things to want.
The reason for this was not that the agendas mentioned were not, in fact, worthy. The reason is that if a priest treats a parish as so much \"clay\" for him to improve and whip into shape, there is something fundamentally wrong--this is a Western attitude and there is something implicitly disrespectful and violent.
I worship at a parish without pews except at the edges; I believe it is not only correct but spiritually better. But were I ordained and put in charge of a parish with lots of pews, it would be a mistake for me to make a clean sweep and say, \"It\'s better to stand, so I\'m removing them before the next liturgy.\"
I believe it makes sense both to say that standing is better, and to refrain from abruptly and violently \"improving\" a parish if that is not yet where they are.
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Marie Moffitt
#55
On thing puzzles and, I\'m afraid, rather disgusts me.
What\'s with these pewless convert churches where people sit on the dirty floor during the sermon, like children. In most pewless Orthodox churches, no one over the age of five or six sits on the floor. I certainly never allowed my children to do such a thing in the pewless church we attended. If you are going to insist on no pews, then have some respect and remain standing.
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MariaM wrote:
On thing puzzles and, I'm afraid, rather disgusts me.
What's with these pewless convert churches where people sit on the dirty floor during the sermon, like children. In most pewless Orthodox churches, no one over the age of five or six sits on the floor. I certainly never allowed my children to do such a thing in the pewless church we attended. If you are going to insist on no pews, then have some respect and remain standing.
I thought I was the only one who thought this was weird. During the sermon I want to sit, but don\'t want to sit on the floor. We have a few benches and chairs on the edge, which I usually take. When it\'s crowded, though, I\'ll sit on the floor. Fortunately we have rugs that are vacuumed weekly.
Even weirder are the \"humility battles,\" where people reach a stand off, both refusing to take a chair. As a result, women in their 60s are sitting on the floor next to an empty chair, even when it\'s crowded. And I\'m on the floor, looking at that empty chair . . .
In Ukraine they have a phobia of sitting on the floor. Once my kids wanted to sit on the steps in front of a shop during the summer while their mom was shopping. I let them sit, warning them about what would happen. In fewer than five minutes, an older woman walked by and fell into a panic.
I fall in between the two views, but I wonder what an old Ukrainian woman would do if she saw a church full of people sitting on the floor . . .
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We (they) have the following pews available from Saint George Greek Orthodox Church in Saint Paul, Minnesota
Item: 5 oak pews, stained in walnut brown
Size: 112\"w x 20\"d x 35\"h
Availability: ASAP! (work will start in June)
Contact St George Church 651/222-6220 or stgeorgegoc@msn.com
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hehe I\'ve seen that!
my Godmother is from India, and she said in the narthex they would take off their shoes before entering the church... in that way I would see sitting on the floor as natural... maybe because living in Korea, anywhere where you take off your shoes (a home, a restaurant, a school) it\'s considered clean or ok to be on the floor... but anywhere where your shoes go is considered to be absolutely filthy and people wouldn\'t dare sit on the floor without a mat or a newspaper under them
so at St Nicholas cathedral in Seoul, if they didn\'t have pews, but allowed shoes, they\'d have a big newspaper cleanup problem, haha
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Kseniya Mierzejewska
#58
I\'m only 48 but I walk with a cane and cannot stand long due to a hip injury. I appreciate pews, even as I can see the problems with them.
If we got rid of the pews and put benches or chairs around the walls, I\'d be stuck with a choice of trying to stand for 2 hours (which I can\'t do) or sitting next to a heavily-fragranced elderly person. Not much of a choice.
Just as an aside, here\'s something of a pet peeve: we do have a handicapped pew, which is really just where a pew has been removed to provide room for walkers and wheelchairs (and people with canes like me who have difficulty navigating the narrow space between pews). Unfortunately, the young mothers with babies and toddlers take it over. In spite of the wheelie sign on the side of the pew. It\'s such a production to ask them to move, what with all the bags and toys and books and what-not, that I gave up a long time ago. I really don\'t want to be resented for being mobility-impaired. *sigh*
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Anna Bennett
#2
My daughter and I are getting ready to visit a church on pilgrimage. She saw a picture of it today and couldn\'t believe there were chairs. She asked, \"Mom, will they make us sit?\" She has never known a church with seating aside from a couple benches for the old folks.
I\'m not certain she\'ll know what to do--or me for that matter!
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Fr. John  Moses
#59
Should we call those who use pews and chairs in church.....chairatics? (heretics)
Those who know my odd sense of humor will know that I am making a joke. We have always stood for worship, yet we have always had chairs and pews around the back walls. So..its a mix.
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John Chan
#60
frj1951 wrote:
Should we call those who use pews and chairs in church.....chairatics? (heretics)
giggle. :grin:
I hope nobody mentions anything about the pewtrid.
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2 ladies in my church, both nuns, are the epitome of love and selflessness... they do the church\'s paperwork, taxes, cook for the bishop(s)... prepare english copies of things for us english speakers - one of them likely does ALL the housework at the monastery for the metropolitan as well
now, when they are at the cathedral, and sitting in the pew, I hardly think that their sitting is hardly a reflection of their orthodoxy... their orthodoxy is in the selflessness of their deeds
if I could be as selfless as them - then maybe I could stand to make a right decision about seating arrangements... but maybe if I was as selfless about them, I would equally not care about seating arrangements, like them.
when there\'s chairs or pews, they sit... when there\'s not, they stand.... simple.
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All I ever here about this is that it should be changed but it can\'t be done quickly or rashly, because this could upset a congregation. Put the seats around the outside and let the young, healthy people stand aright! We want Orthodoxy!!!
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You have Orthodoxy- you just have it sitting down. ;)
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