Ryan McGee
#0
For many people, forgiveness is difficult. A person wrongs you, and you cannot bring yourself to pardon that person. You continue to feel resentment towards the person. The very presence of the person disgusts you, and you may be inclined in your heart to seek vengeance for the wrong the person committed against you. Today during his homily, father spoke about two monks who once were friends but who, because of one small incident, suddenly became resentful and unforgiving of one another. Even the monks fall prey to unforgiving attitudes. None of us is exempt from this tendency.
I know that we are supposed to forgive a person always and unconditionally, no matter how many times that person has sinned against us. What I wonder is if there exists a distinction between forgiveness and forgetting the pain that someone has caused you.
As an example from my own life: this past year I spent the year teaching. Many of the students were extremely unruly and disrespectful towards me. Several parents as well didn\'t treat me the best. A lot of what I felt were offenses were probably not intentional against me, but still, by the end of each day, I brimmed with inner anger that had developed throughout the day.
Right now (and not to speak with presumption) I feel that I can forgive the students, the parents and others, and I believe I have to a certain degree in my heart, but I still cannot forget the pain of certain experiences.
I find this particular example to be the general case with many friends and family in my life. I don\'t find it difficult to forgive someone (at least mentally in my mind). At present, I don\'t feel unreconciled with anyone whom I feel has wronged me in the past. However, I still bear along with me the pain that came through other persons\' actions. Whenever a memory brings up this pain, I sometimes catch myself imagining scenarios by which I subtly \\"get back\\" at a person. I quickly check these pre-meditations, and focus my mind on something else, or pray, or both. For me at least, it is easy to forgive someone upfront, but difficult to follow through with this forgiveness continually when the memory of that pain does not go away.
I think of Christian sufferers of abuse. On a regular basis, they are wronged, are hurt in such a way that their minds are affected. They may be able to say \\"I forgive you,\\" but that pain only builds up as the abuser commits the same offense again and again. Even more so, I often wonder how rape victims are able to forgive. With the help of God, they can bring themselves to forgiving the rapist, but the psychological pain of being violated --I can\'t imagine the Lord expecting a person to forget that experience in order to fully forgive.
Sadly, even in Orthodoxy, I notice an attitude that is unwilling to reconcile with groups (Latins, Turks, Poles, etc.) that have inflicted great sufferings on Orthodox people. Individuals may be forgiven, but as to the larger group, it cannot be forgiven for its collective actions, nor can the harms it commits ever be forgotten.
Please feel free to comment. I\'m open to constructive criticism as well.
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Marie Moffitt
#9
My take: We must forgive, and we must not forget how we let other people\'s actions and words poison our lives.
Now if I could just REALLY apply that in my own life, I\'d be a much better person!
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John Chan
#10
Prior to my coming to Orthodoxy, I was in the place where I needed to learn much about forgiving. I found a book by Lewis Smedes to be helpful, and I remember thinking \\"This ought to be on some required reading list for everybody.\\"
you can read the introduction at this link (I hope it works).
[url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/034541344X/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link]The Art of Forgiving[/url]
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Ryan McGee
#8
johnchan wrote:
Prior to my coming to Orthodoxy, I was in the place where I needed to learn much about forgiving. I found a book by Lewis Smedes to be helpful, and I remember thinking \"This ought to be on some required reading list for everybody.\"
you can read the introduction at this link (I hope it works).
[url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/034541344X/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link]The Art of Forgiving[/url]
Thanks. I\'ll check into it.
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#11
I once heard an expression ...
Orthodox are not perfect, just forgiven.
While we should forgive perfectly in an ideal world, we aren\'t perfect. But we should try.
Now having said that I like to think of David and Bathsheba (2 sam 11-12) whenever I think of forgiveness. If you remember the story from the OT David (of David and Goliath) fell in love with a married gal (while she was taking a bath of course) and sent her husband off to war to die so he could have her.
The husband died, God didn\'t like what David did, and sent a man named Nathan to rebuke him. David realized what he did and God imposed some consequences. His son died (if that was a punishment or not I don\'t know) but David was forgiven.
So following God\'s example, yes there is forgiveness for wrongs done, but there are always consequences we still must deal with.
Oh and as a side note, David and Bathsheba had another son later, perhaps you\'ve heard of him, King Solomon.
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#12
Thank you, Vino, for this great post!
To forgive then means, to become free. To become free from my role of a victim with all of its selfpity, hatred, paralysis. Not to be governed any longer by my enemy, by that what was in the past but to look to the front with confidence in the Lord.
The Israelites never forgot the time of slavery in Egypt. I guess, it depends what way I remember. Do I remember irreconcilably or do I remember the great deed God has done.
Those Israelites who weren\'t ready to live the life of freed people (which indeed meant struggle) interestingly enough very soon longed back for the slavery in Egypt. And they never got to the Holy Land.
The Exodus of the Israelites and the crossing of the Sea is a image of the baptism. In our baptism God set us free from the evil past, from the slavery. When we confess, our baptismal grace becomes re-established.
We have to learn to live as free people. I guess, this will be a process, maybe a long way. But God can give us the will and the accomplishing.
Jannis
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Ryan McGee
#13
Vino wrote:
I've been reading a book by Met Anthony Bloom 'Living Prayer'. In one chapter he talks about the Lord's Prayer and draws a parallel between the prayer and the Exodus of the Israelites. He parallels the crossing of the red sea to \"forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'. He said, (all paraphrased) - freeing them from Egypt was the easy part. But then, they had to learn to be free men. After 400 years of slavery, the way they thought and behaved had become like slaves. To be free, you have to be cut off from the past. Thus the necessity to forgive. Only God can help you forgive, but if you can't forgive, and you'll be slaughtered by the returning egyptians. Once you forgive - you find yourself in the scorching desert. Welcome to the land of the Free Man. No one's going to feed you. No one is going to provide you with shelter and clothing. You are totally dependent on God. All security is gone. But this is true freedom.
This meant a lot to me. Because I used to think I could sit and celebrate that God had helped me forgive. But I see, that forgiving is the easy part. Learning to rely on God to take care of me, is so extremely hard. And I better learn quick, because the desert is merciless!
As for forgetting... the reason we can't forget is because of the pain that was caused. The pain is real. As long as the wounds are there, we'll feel the pain. But God promises healing. Do we truly want Him to heal us of such pain, or do we find some kind of comfort in nursing those pains? I find that I like to hold on to my pains. But, as long as I have broken bones and bruises all over me, I'll never be fully free. I'll be at the mercy of whoever wishes to take care of me. And the smallest bumps and trips and falls, will burst my wounds open and I\"ll be in an incredible amount of pain again.
Pain is debilitating. You cannot function as a normal human being, when you are in pain. Pain also takes time to heal. Forgiving a person, does not heal the pain. Walking in the desert, following God, drinking and eating what He provides you with, that's what heals the pain. As your wounds heal, so will your relationships with those who wounded you. I haven't yet experienced the completing healing of a relationship, so I can't say from experience, if your relationship will be equal to what it was before. But, with God, all things are possible. Only my pride stands in the way, not wanting my relationships to heal to their prior state, or to an even better state!
Another point - relationships are always risky. For the simple reason that people are still full of imperfections. When I befriend someone, I'm making myself open to being wounded. And anyone who befriends me, is also laying themselves open to be wounded. Unless, the relationships are superficial... The deeper you get, the greater the potential pain, and the greater the rewards. Thankfully, such deep relationships are not possible with more than one or two people! Or maybe they are. I do not know. I just know that it'll take a lot out of me to grow such a friendship.
Forgive me. I've no idea if I've stayed on topic. And since posting on your last thread, I've been given the grace to experience back pain. I should really get off this chair again, before I freeze to it in pain. =)
In Christ,
Vino.
I added the book to my \\"to purchase\\" list.
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James Anthony
#14
I am a sinner redeemed by the grace of God; and, just one transgression away from perdition! For me at least not forgetting sins against our person is what makes forgiveness so powerful. Do you think that God has forgotten that His Son was crucified for the redemption of the world?
the sinful and unworthy servant
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#15
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In the book Dorotheos of Gaza (this is a total paraphrase. i don\'t have the book with me)... there is a young monk who was easily distracted, talked a lot, couldn\'t fast very well, etc., etc., and he was put under the direction of Dorotheos. He was in the monastery for only a short time before he became seriously ill and died. A visiting elder came to the monastery and prayed God to show him the rich history of the monastery in the form of the departed spiritual leaders of the monastery. God granted him a vision, and in this vision were many venerable, old monks, with long hair and beards. At the end of the vision, however, he saw a young monk, with a short beard and short hair. The visiting elder was perplexed by this and went to the elders of the monastery asking who this young monk was. The elders recognized the young monk of the vision as the young monk who had been under the direction of Dorotheos. The elders also were perplexed as to why the young monk was counted among the spiritual leaders of the monastery\'s history. They then call in Dorotheos and asked him what the virtues of the young monk were. Dorotheos said that it was true that the young monk was easily distracted, like to talk, was not a good faster, etc., etc. He continued on, however, by saying that although the young monk, perhaps did not appear to be the ideal of a monastic, he never once in his time at the monastery held a grudge, or remembered a wrong done against him. That was the reason that he was counted by God among the great fathers of the monastery.
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Ryan McGee
#17
Orthonut wrote:
Great story Christiana14. I'll have to add that to my list of wise stories to share with others. :)
Orthonut
Ditto. Great story.
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We have to remember in the parable of the servant who was forgiven of his debt by his master... the debt was equal to the size of a small country\'s treasury. How much greater is our debt toward God... and yet through the sacraments and His incredible love and mercy He continually forgives us. In light of His love it seems like such a small thing to forget the little injustices done against us, and yet it is so difficult.
Imagine a world where everyone remembered every wrong done to them. No one would get along. Everyone would hate each other, and people would become islands. Yet we as Orthodox Christians know that no one can be saved alone. We need one another. I think it is clear that our road to salvation is dependent on our willingness to forgive and forget the sins of others. How can we love God if we cannot love our brothers and sisters in Christ? Doesn\'t love necessitate forgiveness?
Just thinking out loud...
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#19
I totally understand where you\'re coming from - gee, don\'t I know it.
I\'m living with a friend that I\'ve known for about 7 years. Her life was her beauty. And when her ex broke up with her, she sort of withered away, put on a lot of weight and slowly but surely entered a depression. Since the beginning of the year, I tried and tried and tried, encouraging her to do sports with me, inviting her out, planning things for us to do together, etc...
But over the last four months, I\'ve noticed her actually slapping me in the face time after time. She hardly speaks to me, even though I try to engage conversation, when we have friends over, she\'ll chat animatedly to them but when I ask her something she\'ll reply in a morose tone of voice.
She\'s continually disregarded my feelings by not pulling her weight, she won\'t touch any cleaning duties in the house, even if the mess is her own, she makes snide comments about something I have done or accomplished.
I have forgiven her over and over. I am still trying to talk to her but when do I draw the line? I used to be very angry and resentful because I spent so much of my time on someone who doesn\'t deserve it but now I\'m placid, I just need to learn to forget.
Bah - I know, I need some working on in the \\"being a good Christian area\\" :)
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Reader Michael Malloy
#20
I believe in many ways, it is best to forget as well as forgive. If we dwell on past wrongs we fail to release the evil they represent and our lives are poisoned by the memories. I speak from personal experience here. As a choir director I was tested constantly. Members of the choir gossiped about me behind my back, they complained to the priest, the rebelled openly. This cause me great stress and sometimes I failed to keep my feelings inside. In the end I failed as a choir director because I could not minister to the members of the choir and became obsessed with thier failings. It was an ugly situation. The more I tried to be a good choir director the worse the situation became. In the end I was removed, painfully on a Holy Friday in front of the whole congregation, and I went into a period of seclusion for about two years. I was filled with anger, hurt, and resentment over the way I was treated. In the end, the love of Christ was the only thing left and I returned to the Church. I now sing with that same choir, warts and all, and I don\'t pay attention to the flaws in leadership of it in the current configuration. I\'m able to attend Church, worship, and hear great sermons again.
Naturally I would rather sing in a well disciplined and competent choir, but I partake in what is available and don\'t worry about it any more. This is all the more difficult for me because I have a bachelor of music degree and I am painfully aware of every musical error. I ignore the bad singing and concentrate on community worship now.
Reader Michael Malloy
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#21
I need to know if forgetting is the same as walking back into a destructive situation and getting hurt or worse, letting my husband and children get hurt and broken because of the behavior of the other party. I can forgive and do forgive every time something happens and I ask for a lot of forgiveness every time I get angry with them, but what about forgetting? I cannot keep getting hurt like this.
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