better without pews

Orthodox churches are not supposed to have pews. The fact that many do in the US and some other Western countries is due to influence of the Protestant and Catholic churches - the false belief that \"we need to have that too.\" When I attend a service in an Orthodox church with pews, I feel restricted - people can\'t go around and venerate the icons or light candles in various places. During Lent, when the Prayer of St. Eprhaim is said, you need to go into the aisles to make a metanoia, as you certainly can\'t do that in a pew. Besides, attending church, i.e. coming in direct contact with the One Living God, is not supposed to be comfy. It\'s not a show for the laity to sit back and enjoy.

This whole argument is starting to remind me of the pointless evolution-creation debate...

It\'s not just \"those raised in western Christendom\" who sit, it\'s also the Orthodox whose churches have pews. Unless you have a physical impairment, it doesn\'t take that long to get used to standing throughout a Liturgy. The REAL test is Easter, where it can run for a good four hours. It can be done, believe me. I\'ve got a sway back and bad knees, but somehow I\'ve managed.

Oh, absolutely! I wasn\'t raised in the Orthodox Church, but I got used to standing. You\'re right, the Pascha service can last four hours. But in a monastery or convent, or even at a traditional Orthodox cathedral they can be there for five hours or so on a regular Saturday night. At Joy of All Who Sorrow Cathedral in San Francisco (ROCOR), if you attend the moleben to St. John Maximovitch, then stay for Vigil, you will be there about five hours. And it\'s five hours spent in Heaven.

\"A day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere\" says the Psalmist. And how lovely that hyperbole is! If we are to prepare to \"stand before the dread judgment seat of Christ\" as we pray in the Liturgy, what better practice than to engage in the struggle for Grace now by attending the services? Attend does not mean \"sit.\"

I too would rather spend one day in the courts of the Lord than a thousand anywhere else! The first time I attended a Divine Liturgy was the first time I really felt I was in the presence of God and it was really awesome! Even with the pews restricting the activity and the annoying electric organ it was still like nothing I\'ve ever expereinced and it blew my doors off! I could never go back to anything else after experiencing Paradise!

I wonder if there are pews in heaven... :) The trick is... if you do sit.. don\'t get too comfortable. You might miss something.

I wonder who has looked at the history of pews. I know that in old churches in New England, they have little \"box seating,\" with fairly tall separators. I heard that a main reason for the sections was heating; each section could have a little heater. Standing and sitting in the old world are very different. Back in the day, standing was a way of showing respect, now reserved in the US for the President, judges, and the military. But back in the day, students stood while the teacher sat. Of if the student sat, it would be on the floor at the \"feet\" of the teacher. In Kiev in the early 90s students would all stand when the teacher came in the room. I also heard that sitting to work is relatively new. I heard offices only started having sitting desks in the early 1800s. Before that you would stand or lean, kind of like chanters\' stands. In old centers of Jewish learning you can find two podia facing each other for colleagues to stand at when they argue with one another. Standing is a symbol, and symbols\' meanings change over time and in different cultures. I get the feeling that nowadays standing during the whole church service makes as much sense to most people as standing to type at work. In our world, one shows respect by listening and being nice, rather than the outward sign of standing and sitting. But as I said in the beginning, pews are murder for kids in church so I prefer to avoid them.

Nice insight! Thanks.

Thinking about this nice feature of not having pews reminded me of trips to the Old Country. In some of those churches, you would be trampled if you tried to do a metania. That assumes you can see your feet! In other words, it\'s so crowded you can\'t even move on your own volition. I imagine Hagia Sophia was like that on occasion.

Good point! Drevyev\'s comment reminded me of a time I was in a church in Poland, where there were no pews. I was a little too close and personal with an old man I didn\'t know. He was just the right height to make it very uncomfortable. I couldn\'t concentrate because my \"personal space\" was total violated. In Greece (and I don\'t know of any other countries which do this) the men stand separate from the women. I imagine it is for this very reason. So.... One good reason for pews... maintain proper distance to establish personal space. Yes, it is very American of me. I know.

considering 99% of the Liturgies I attend are conducted in a foreign language, all of Liturgy my face is planted in an English Liturgy book. - to participate in what is being said, as my Bishop commanded me... whether I\'m standing or sitting, I\'m still looking in a book... so pews don\'t really matter in that case, I guess. but for long sermons in a foreign language, I do tend to fall asleep sitting down... but that may be more of a product of keeping myself overly busy in a \"quickly! quickly!\" country.

Reguarding the \"sectionall pews\"...really, they were more for \"fundraising\" or \"profit\" to the church. In New England, the way a congregation was organized was that the wealthiest families own/rented the pews closest to the \"alter\", the less affable held pews further back. And the poor and slaves held the chairs in the back of the church (if there were any), or the benches up in the choir loft area. So, they weren\'t really set up for the comfort of the church goers, it was more a \"class statement\"...the wealthy had their own pews, and the less fortunate had to make due, or stand. And as far as things changing in culture and time...this is one thing, I\'d have to say, that has sadly changed in our society. But as Christians, we are commanded in the Bible to stand when in prayer even. There are two postures that God or the prophets prescribe when one is either praying to, or witnessing, God...those two honorable postures are fully prostrate, or standing \"reverantly\" before God. So, the inovation of tons of pews in our churches teaches against such scripture. So, ultimately, it\'s a sin, especially in those churches where the young, healthy members outnumber any crippled or elderly. I\"m not condeming those who have them, only God can decide where that judgment stands...just saying, really, it\'s a slight against what the Bible tells us explicitly to do. ::shrugs::

Well, actually, neither debate is \"pointless\" in terms of people being educated as to the truth. But, evolution-creation is for another link. Darwin\'s \"ideal\" theory has no gravity, but there are small points to it that are quite feasable...just not in the measure he suggested.

Today I think there shouldn\'t be pews in church. My reasoning... In my attempt to discipline my 4 year old son in during Liturgy this morning, I left the small chapel which seats 160 people, three times! (It was a rough morning.) And each time I returned to my place I had to find a new seat because someone (not me) was sitting there. And yes, each time I left my books on the seat and my purse on the floor. This only exasperated the discipline situation because we kept moving around. And no, I didn’t make a scene... I just found a new place to go. Thought One; had we not had pews, I wouldn’t have had to tell him to stop squirming in and out of the arm rest opening. He likes to lean into the aisle to see everyone and an unobstructed view of the royal doors. Thought two; had everyone been to church on time- or at least arrived before the Gospel reading, they’d have seen that I was to return. They also would have already had their own seat and therefore wouldn’t need mine. As for pews or no pews...I am very skilled at squeezing through the crowd to return to my original spot. So, if you were to ask me this week, I’d say “No Pews.”