#0
Does anyone know if the issues of \"biblical genocide\" such as recorded in 1 Sam. 15 has ever been addressed be the Church Fathers? Has the Church spoken on how to reconcile the idea that God (who is all loving and merciful) commanded His people to annihilate a whole group of people, including women, children, and infants? What could infants have possibly done to have deserved such a pronouncement of judgment? Please note that I am not looking for private opinions. I had enough of those as a Protestant. I would like to know if the Church has spoken with one voice about these things.
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#4
Wow, I don't know what to say to this response. It almost makes me regret asking the question. In all of my reading, I can't find where this attitude reflects the beliefs of The Church. In Orthodoxy, I didn't know there was such a thing as a \"point of no return\". Many Orthodox throughout history saw the record of the flood as symbolic. Many Orthodox also believe in the restoration of all things, so that not only is there no \"point of no return\", but that eventually all will be restored to God.
Anyway, I did not want a private opinion, which I received. I do not seek to interpret the Scriptures or have them interpreted to me by someone else. I would still like to know from someone who has studied these things if the Church has spoken on the subject of which I mention.
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#5
Read the writtings of St. Mark the Ascetic in the Philokilia...
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#6
Hi jforrester!
I unfortunatly can't give you a full account on the writings of the fathers and such, because even after 13 years of being Orthodox, I am still learning. I am going to ask my spiritual father this question and see how he responds.
On another note, I was reading a \"parable\" once I believe from Elder Cleopa, about how a saint when walking through the woods saw an angel go into someone's house and when he came out he threw out a beautiful silver platter into a lake. Then the angel went into the next house and strangled a young boy to death. Before the angel could leave, the very appalled saint asked, \"Why did you do these cruel things?!\"
The angel replied, \"In the first house I took the platter which the owner loved more the God, so to save him from greed I threw it into the lake, to save his soul.\"
\"And the other?\" The saint asked.
\"The other I strangled because he would have become a murderer of his own parents had he lived another year, so I took him while he was still pure to save his soul, before it would have become corrupted.\"
I tell you this to assure you that God sometimes allows things, so that our eternal souls may be saved, even though we might find them to be cruel in some way. But we have to be humble and understand that we are not God.
Forgive me a sinner for not having more historical and theological information, but know I am trying to get some from a more enlightened person!
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Karatebon,
While your answer might not have been the erudite explication of a theologian, it was very apt, and therefore good enough.
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Perhaps you can read something into Lev. 18:19-31
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Since the LORD was judging Amalek, can it be called genocide?
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#3
Welcome, jforrester!
Let me just say that I am also very bothered by these events in the Bible. I don't understand them either. Whatever answers can be given from an Orthodox perspective, I am interested in them as well, as I think are many others in the Church.
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Ana Hudici
#2
Ninive is a very good example to understand the lesson why such a thing might happen and how man can change God's decision about it.
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#1
Thank you all for you comments and assistance. I am no closer to understanding if the Fathers taught with much consensus about this subject or not. This seems to be to be a fairly major point of belief and it is suprising to me that I cannot find more information about it. There seem to be a few prevailing thoughts among Orthodox, but I could be missing some:
1. The historical books of the Old Testament have much symbolism and often exaggerate the record in order to make a spiritual point. Therefore, the things that seem to be inconsistent with the nature of God's love and mercy are to be understood symbolically. This view seems to make it easy to pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic.
2. The historical books of the Old Testament were penned in a time and by a people who were violent and barbaric in many ways. They took God's instructions and added their own spin upon them and went way beyond what God had intended, even to the point of blaming God for their actions, as if God had told them to kill infants and children, instead of immobilizing a pagan army. This, of course, casts doubt upon the inerrancy of the Old Testament.
3. God was having mercy upon the Amalekites by killing every man, woman, child and infant, along with all the animals, by saving their souls by destroying their bodies. However, this idea to me just doesn't make sense, considering the alternatives, like sparing the infants and children and teaching them the true faith, would seem to be much more consistent with the Trinity of the New Testament.
I would continue to welcome any any commentaries by the Fathers or Church regarding this subject.
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lol. I sure hope your missing some of the \"prevailing thoughts among Orthodox\" .... The three that you listed seem absurd.
Could I meet you halfway between a personal interpretation and the elusive teachings of the Church Fathers on this subject ? This is a footnote for Leviticus 18:24 in the New Scofield Reference Edition [1967]:
\"This list of abominable practices which the Hebrews were to avoid vividly points out the utter degradation of Canaanite morality. Archaeological discoveries have brought many illustrations of this condition, which was so bad that a holy God had to order the complete extermination of the Canaanites. Several centuries earlier God had predicted that by this time the 'iniquity of the Amorites' would be full (Gen. 15:16). Archaeology illustrates the increasing moral degeneracy of Canaanitish civilization during this period.\"
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#11
shepdog17 wrote:
Could I meet you halfway between a personal interpretation and the elusive teachings of the Church Fathers on this subject ? This is a footnote for Leviticus 18:24 in the New Scofield Reference Edition [1967]:
"This list of abominable practices which the Hebrews were to avoid vividly points out the utter degradation of Canaanite morality. Archaeological discoveries have brought many illustrations of this condition, which was so bad that a holy God had to order the complete extermination of the Canaanites. Several centuries earlier God had predicted that by this time the 'iniquity of the Amorites' would be full (Gen. 15:16). Archaeology illustrates the increasing moral degeneracy of Canaanitish civilization during this period."
Personally, I can't reconcile how the extermination of infants and children could ever be necessary or consistent with the love of God as taught in the New Testament and proclaimed by the Fathers and the Church as a whole. Why would you need to purify innocents who have no stain upon them anyway? The Canaanite babies and children were not genetically predisposed to be pagan. Why not spare them and teach them the true faith?
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Steve Hille
#12
Matthew Gallatin has some very insightful comments about this topic under a series of talks he began last summer entitled Sola Scriptura and Philosophical Christianity. He addresses the concepts of punishment and wrath beginning with Part 13, dated 8/18/2008. This was very thought provoking and eye opening.
Learn more about Matthew at http://matthewgallatin.com/
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